Embracing Diversity: The Church's Path to Healing
About this episode
Pastor Ken Claytor, author of As It Is in Heaven and lead pastor of My Life Church in Orlando, Florida, joins Philip Cameron for a candid conversation on racial reconciliation and the church's unique calling to heal ethnic division in America. Ken shares how over a decade of intentional ministry transformed his congregation from 99% Black to a thriving 50/50 multicultural church — proof that diversity doesn't happen by accident. At the heart of Ken's message is a bold biblical claim: "In the eyes of God, there's one race." He unpacks how Scripture never uses racial categories as we know them today, and how genetics itself confirms that human beings are 99.9% identical. "Being Black is not who I am — it's what I look like," Ken explains. "Who I am is found in Christ." He traces the roots of racist ideology to evolutionary theory and argues that the church cannot fulfill its true destiny while speaking with a fractured voice. Ken offers practical steps for pastors and congregations — from intentional cross-cultural relationships to building genuinely multicultural leadership teams. He also discusses his podcast Doing Life with Kenneth and resources available at kenclaytor.com. Pick up As It Is in Heaven and begin the process of reconciliation in your church today.
Part of our Church collection of conversations.
Quotes worth sharing
“I'm not a black person first. I am a Christian, a saved man, that happens to be black. And I believe that when we start to identify ourselves first in Christ, there's a lot more that we have in common than we think.”
“Race as we know it today is a man-made construct and it is not biblical. So when we understand that we've all been made in the image and likeness of God, that in the eyes of God there is one race and different ethnicities to celebrate, we begin to diffuse racism.”
“If politics could have solved this problem in America, it would have been resolved a long time ago. This is a spiritual effort. There's a spiritual need in this country, and unless the church addresses this, we will not move forward.”
What's Discussed
Pastor Ken Claytor, lead pastor of My Life Church (Orlando, FL) and author of As It Is in Heaven, explains why racial reconciliation is a spiritual mandate the church cannot outsource to politics. Drawing on Scripture and genetics, Ken argues there is only one human race — skin color and melanin representing less than 0.1% of our DNA. He recounts how his church shifted from 99% Black to a genuinely multicultural congregation over 16 years through intentional relationship-building. He challenges believers to identify as Christians first, pursue cross-cultural friendships deliberately, and trust pastors across ethnic lines. Resources at kenclaytor.com and the Doing Life with Kenneth podcast.
- Ken Claytor's Call to Multicultural Ministry
- Why Politics Cannot Solve Racial Division
- One Race: The Biblical and Genetic Case
- Identity in Christ Over Ethnic Identity
- Intentional Steps Toward Church Diversity
- Trusting a Pastor Across Ethnic Lines
- Resources: Book, Podcast, and Website
Episode Transcript
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Intro
Philip:Hey, welcome to Daily Faith today. My name is Philip Cameron. You have just happened by, perchance at God's leading. I'm Scottish enough and hyper-Calvinistic enough to know that God has a plan, always has a plan. It's like the Presbyterian pastor that fell out of his pool one day and knocked his head on one of the pews, and the elders ran to get him, and he stood up and dusted himself off and he said, "Well, thank God that's over." You'll get it after a while. It was in the plan. It was predestined. Never mind. It doesn't matter.
Philip:We have a great show today. We got a great friend. Listen, I want you to call your pastor if you're watching, and this is a show he needs to watch. We're gonna have a guest on in a few minutes. His name is Ken Claytor, and he has a book, "As It Is in Heaven," about how God's gonna use the church and how we can heal this racial divide. And so I'm excited to have him on in a few moments.
Philip:We've just been getting at it this morning. I got up early and loaded — this is a truth — I worked a forklift all this morning loading a container. I don't know if you could — there you go. That's me on a forklift loading that container. And for those that know, being supporting and being praying for us, we've given 15,000 coats to the refugees in Ukraine. And so this morning we loaded another container, and that container is on its way as I speak right now. And my son Andrew is in Moldova and he's worked all morning on a house for a widow with four kids — no money, no support — in a mud house. The floor of that house, as he was telling me, is made of mud and dung. The walls are made of mud and dung.
Philip:And it is an absolute shambles. No heating in it. And our kids have built a whole fireplace, totally built the place, put in furniture, and my son — his dad — you should have seen the woman weeping as we left this morning because we changed her world. And the crazy thing is, for those that maybe are watching for the first time, we have a mission work in Moldova and Ukraine. We've been in Ukraine for years, long before the war broke out. We were there, and we have a place called Vatra Village. It is a place, a village of six houses, a beautiful place. And we saved the kids from being trafficked. Every girl, every young girl in our ministry has lived a life at risk of being trafficked. One girl caught by a trafficker will make $300,000 a year for the trafficker.
Philip:And our kids — we put them back in school, share the gospel with them, and orphans become sons and daughters, and sons and daughters become missionaries. And they have been literally working in Ukraine since the war started. They were at the border the first day when the refugees started coming. We've been feeding and caring for people. We've given away thousands of blankets, thousands of Bibles. And just the other day they were in Ukraine and they sent me this video that I think can bless you. Our kids — every young person you see in this video is one of our kids that God has rescued through folk like you caring. Watch this.
A year ago, their world was a happy place. They had jobs, their kids were in school, the corner shop sold bread and cheese and everything else. Their world was just like yours. Until through the mist and snow, monsters came. The tracks rattled on the ice-packed fields. The guns pointed towards the world they lived in. It took less than a second to obliterate everything that they had spent their lives building. There are no accurate numbers as to how many have died. The end is nowhere in sight.
We have been in Ukraine for years. From the first explosion we were involved. We took this assault personally. We could not stand on the sidelines and do nothing. Our amazing group of young men and women did the unimaginable. Once again they drove into a war zone. Scarred themselves — they have felt personally the hand of grace and redemption. To go to this devastated world seems to them as normal as having a meal or going to church. They drove for hours, unable to stop and stretch their legs, as inches on each side of the vehicles were live mines.
Every few miles they were stopped at checkpoints by nervous soldiers. They were running along the line between the Russians and Ukrainians. Our team finally reached Kherson, a recently liberated city still held in the grip of desperation. They had brought food, wood-burning stoves that will save lives in the bitter, deadly cold that is to come. They brought blankets that to many is the only barrier between survival and death. On a dreary day, within the sound of guns and bombs, the most astonishing thing took place.
The rescued became the rescuers. Hundreds waited in the rain, shuffling along in a line that ended up in love — smiles, bread, fish, and words of care from the heart of the redeemed. As they traveled they came across bombed-out villages, scarred by stray bullets, destroyed by the engines of death. Their water, electricity, and everything else was gone. But the wood and stoves had become the guardian against the deadly cold. We know it is impossible for most to even imagine this world. But by giving and praying together for this unfolding tragedy, we can join our hearts and hands to bring the hope that was sent to earth by a loving God. If it were us, we would wait in line, hoping that someone somewhere was thinking of us. We must go back. Will you send us? Every gift you give allows us to be his hands.
Philip:And that is why we're called the Orphan's Hands, because their hands are God's hands extended. We did go back and we're going back again. My son was there yesterday and went to the same spot, and we go there constantly and feed a thousand people. They get in line and we give them loaves and fishes. And my son yesterday — I just got the video today of my son. It's an amazing feeling to watch your son standing up on a bridge preaching to these people the gospel and telling them that God loves them. And we need to go back and back and back. There's no end to this.
Philip:I don't know what's gonna happen. I have no concept as to how this will resolve itself. Putin can't stop because if he does he'll be killed by the old guards of Russia, and I just don't know. But I know this — I'm not involved in the politics, but I am involved in what Jesus would do, and that is to rescue the perishing and care for the dying. And your giving and your support is so vital. One of those coats costs a hundred and fifty dollars. And what Putin's plan is, he's destroying the infrastructure of the country. He's taking all the electricity down, all the fuel systems down, all the water. He is destroying all the things that people need to live, and he's counting on winter.
Philip:Thankfully so far it has been a mild winter. Usually it's up to 30 degrees below zero. It is deadly. And he's hoping to stop the heating and stop the fuel and literally let Mother Nature kill the people. And so we will go back. I'm not involved in the politics, but I do want to help those in need. And if you could help us — you might want to buy a stove, you may want to sponsor one of these trips.
Philip:We're believing God about to buy a house in Odessa. We've been leasing this house for the last six years and the owner wants to sell, and we are now trying to raise the funds to buy this house. Because all the girls that were in Odessa in Ukraine, we moved them to Vatra Village in Moldova for safety. But it's coming to the point they've got to go back to Odessa, because the war hasn't got to that part and it's time to go back for educational reasons, et cetera. And we have nowhere to put them. And we're believing God — we have been believing God for the last couple of months. We are $60,000 away from having this building, which allows us to rescue 24 girls, and then when they graduate, 24 more. And if you feel to help us, we'd love you to be a part of this miracle. Whatever gift you give right now will be used to help us get there, to keep this feeding ministry going on.
Philip:And as I said, the container yesterday left with coats, and we have a container that just arrived the other day. My wife was there last week emptying this container of coats. So we are in this cycle now of giving out these coats and going to these places. So please allow the Lord to use you. The address is real simple — Orphan's Hands, PO Box 25, Clinton, Tennessee. There's a giving page right there. You can give right now by your charge card, and also you can call 833-Daily-Faith. By doing so you are being God's hand extended. I know you've watched this in the news and I wish you could help. Well, we are there and you can help to do this in the name of Jesus.
Philip:Now I've just lost my — is that a temporary thing? Okay, we're back. I am delighted to have with us today Pastor Ken Claytor. He's a pastor of a multi-site church, a great church down in Florida. We're gonna have him tell you about it. But he's written a book that absolutely pricked my ears up whenever I saw this — "As It Is in Heaven." Many folk don't know, but my only brother was adopted by my mom and dad when he was 10 months old. His father was from Africa, his mother was a white Scottish nurse. And my brother Neil pastors a tremendous church — the largest church in our town back in Scotland. And he traveled with me for many years, played the bass guitar in our singing team that we had.
Philip:And I learned about racism as a big brother, looking on helplessly in the church, and watched my brother suffer and feel grief and pain. Never getting to go to someone's house one night — driving up beside the bus, parking in the driveway, and Neil stepped out and the woman says, "I'm sorry, I can't have him stay in my house." And I said, "Well, if he can't stay in your house, I'm not staying in your house either." We had elder boards come and tell us we don't want you to come after we booked the service, because my brother Neil was with me. This book, and this fact, and this point and subject is needed, and I'm honored to have Pastor Ken with me today. Ken, thank you for being with me. Thank you for taking the time.
Ken Claytor's Call to Multicultural Ministry
Philip:Tell us — what caused you, and I think I know the answer — what caused you to write this book and speak on this very necessary subject?
Ken Claytor:This book has been over 10 years in the making, probably been a lifetime. When I was growing up I had challenges in relationships, being one of few minorities in my area. So I always had a desire for blacks, whites, and all people to come together. So coming into what I call pastoral ministry, from day one on our business cards, on audio boards, wherever we put it, we said we want to be a church for all people. The wonderful problem was, for 10 years we said that we were a church that would have different ethnicities, they would come, but they would not stay.
Ken Claytor:About five years ago I started learning principles about how to get multicultural ministry working, and we went from 99% black to now about 50-50. So that's the passion behind it. This is not something I just came up with — this is something that's been a lifetime. And I mentioned as we were talking before the program, politics — if politics could have solved this problem in America, it would have been resolved a long time ago. This is a spiritual effort. There's a spiritual need in this country, and unless the church addresses this, we will not move forward.
Why Politics Cannot Solve Racial Division
Philip:Our dear friend Bishop Harry Jackson from Missouri — when the terrible events took place in the George Floyd situation, I literally spent a week with Harry Jackson and these guys are friends of mine. I've had them on the program to address this issue. And you talk about there's only one race, and we live in such superficial worlds, and our judgments are made on the surface. Explain to us why there's only one race.
Ken Claytor:Well, in the eyes of God there's one race. Absolutely. The Bible never uses black, white, yellow, brown — it doesn't use that. And so the conclusion scripturally is that race as we know it today is a man-made construct and it is not biblical. So when we understand that we've all been made in the image and likeness of God, that in the eyes of God there is one race and different ethnicities to celebrate, we begin to diffuse racism. Because racism at its core is the belief that one race is superior to another. And so one of the big qualities of racist theory — its foundation — is evolution. Evolution teaches that the lighter you are, the higher you are on the evolutionary chain. Evolutionists would not admit that, but if that is being taught in our public schools, we should stand up, because that is a racist theory. God did not complicate it. We've all been made in his image and likeness. So we all can be reconciled very quickly. And so that's what the Bible teaches.
One Race: The Biblical and Genetic Case
Philip:Absolutely. And the thing is this — the Bible says there's no division, we are just one body. The whole point is that we are many members fitly joined together. And when we understand that, the church — until we get this, the church will not fulfill its true destiny. Because if you speak with a fractured voice, what you say is fractured in people's ears, and you build in your own demise. Until this issue is resolved — as I was saying, I traveled with my brother Neil, and I was astonished. You know, I shared a bed when we were young kids in our room. And the only complaint I ever had was from him, because he kept saying to my mom, "Mom, Philip's so messy. I don't want to share the same room as him. He won't clean up after himself." So here is my neat brother and me being a slob, and he complained endlessly about me being the mess.
Philip:But we would come and people would say, "Does he stay at your house?" And we'd say, "What are you talking about?" And this is so ingrained. Coming from Scotland, where there's no race issue in the same way — our racial issue is more with Indians and Pakistanis, because that's where our trouble is. We occupied them as a colonial power for years and years, and then when they came into our country, that's the issue. But unless the church understands that all of us are equal in God's eyes — and you also talk about melanin. And as you can see this face here, I've been kind of robbed of that thing. I can't stand two minutes in the sun or I'm going to be a red lobster. That's the color I usually go when I'm in the sun. Explain that to us as well, because that's really fascinating.
Ken Claytor:Yes, I think you're talking about the part where I say that we are more than our melanin. That statement is so important, because many times you judge people on the outside for who they really are on the inside. Melanin, or pigment, is a small part of our genetic code. Matter of fact, genetics says that human beings are 99.9% the same, meaning that I may have a different skin color than you, but I might not be able to give you my liver. You might not have the same blood type. But me and you could fill up — we might have the same blood type — and even though we look different on the outside, we're more similar on the inside.
Identity in Christ Over Ethnic Identity
Ken Claytor:Many times when it comes to race, people are putting so much focus on the outside for who they are on the inside. And so I say this — and this is one of those loaded questions that begins the conversation — I say being black is not quiet who I am, but it's what I look like. Now let me explain. Being black — I love my heritage, I love my people, I love where I come from — but it's not who I am. Who I am is found in Christ. Who I am is accountable to Jesus. Who I am is the power that's in his name and the empty tomb. And so I'm not a black person first. I am a Christian, a saved man, that happens to be black. And I believe that when we start to identify ourselves first in Christ, there's a lot more that we have in common than we think.
Philip:Oh my goodness, Ken, you said it there. Unless we get past this roadblock, unless we get past this barrier, we'll go around this mountain forevermore. And when I came to America first, and the bishop in Riley — his name was Skinner, he was the pastor — one of the most powerful men I've ever met in my life. My dad — I was a young man — I was listening to a conversation, and he said, "Brother Simon" — my father's name is Simon — "Brother Simon, we will know when this racial issue is done when people are comfortable with having a black pastor." And I remember sitting there thinking, oh my goodness. We can sit in pews beside each other facing towards the front. But when the man that God's called to be the pastor of our lives, and we trust him with our spiritual destiny as an under-shepherd — that is the key and the crux of where most people fail at this racial stress test that the church seems to be put under continuously.
Ken Claytor:Yeah. One of the things to solve it — because the book is talking about the church, but we are the church — and my hope is that the audience says, "What can I do?" One of the things you can do is be very intentional, because diversity doesn't happen by accident. So listen to this — you say that your brother was African, which means that because there are so many people who only know black people, or they only know other Hispanics, or they only know people of their own age, it's easy to have a reverse mentality if you go exclusive. So we have to be very intentional to go out to dinner with people who don't look like us, invite people over to a house, purchase from businesses that are multi-ethnic, look for other people, and not just have a multi-ethnic outside but bring them on to the inside. Make sure that your children have relationships with people who don't look like them. And you'll see walls come down.
Intentional Steps Toward Church Diversity
Philip:And in our wee fishing town in Scotland where I come from, in the northeast corner — when we adopted Neil, he was the only black person in a town of 12,000 people. So the entire town fell in love with my brother. He couldn't go anywhere without someone saying his name. His name was Neil, and everyone called him "Neily" as a Scottish thing. My son Philip is called "Philippi" because he's a junior from me, and any time he would sit with my mother he'd say, "I can't do anything wrong, Mom, because the whole town knows who I am." So Neily — I'll tell you — he had this wonderful world of care without the racial prejudice.
Philip:And when we came to this country and saw this monster that lived in people's homes and in the churches, I thought, my God, until they get over this thing — and this book, I really want to encourage every pastor to go and get this book today. It's called "As It Is in Heaven." You see that right there — "As It Is in Heaven." And you can get it by going to www.kenclaytor.com — K-L-A-Y-T-O-R — forward slash "as-it-is-in-heaven." And you can get that book. And I encourage you, buy one for your pastor, get one for your friends, circulate this book around the church, because I believe that God can use your church. And you watching me today, whatever you're watching this program from, you can get this book and be God's advocate for reconciliation and healing. Begin the process in you.
Philip:So again, like when I took Neil to America, what I did was I exposed him to black people, because he had very little contact in our little Scottish world that we lived in. And it was fascinating to watch him assimilate and understand where his culture came from — not from where he was raised in Scotland, but in a different country with this racist twist in the whole thing. And he now lives and pastors a multicultural town. The town is now totally multicultural, and there's a huge amount of Filipinos in our town from the fishing industry. And the only church that's opened up and included everybody is a church called Apex. If you want to go and check it online — Apex Church in the northeast corner, a wee town called Peterhead, Scotland.
Trusting a Pastor Across Ethnic Lines
Philip:We've only got two minutes left. Ken, apart from folk getting your book, tell us how they can get in contact with you, and if a pastor's watching, how can they follow up on this and get involved in their church?
Ken Claytor:Yes, please find us online on Instagram at Ken Claytor. My wife and I also have a podcast called "Doing Life with Ken and" — we have a wonderful website at kenclaytor.com. Our heart is to strengthen the local church. So if you're a pastor, a leader, or even a business owner, and you're looking for tools and principles to make your business or your ministry more diverse and make it look more like heaven, we have some things that we've learned over 16 years that we would love to share.
Philip:That is fabulous. So you have a YouTube channel — tell us the name of the YouTube channel so we can get folks there as well.
Ken Claytor:"Doing Life with Ken Claytor." We share marriage, leadership principles, we talk about race, Kingdom, the Bible. Everything is there.
Philip:Well, I am just so thankful and grateful for you. And as I said, when I saw this book, oh my Lord — if ever a subject was needed. I'd love to have you back on when we get more time to talk about this again, because this is needed in the church. And I just ask God to use this book in your life. Pastor, if you're watching, get it today. Buy it for your pastor and be a part of this reconciliation and healing that is so needed in the church. God bless you, Pastor Ken.
Philip:And that is his website — Ken Claytor — and his church is My Life Church. The Orlando campus is on the Florida Mall Avenue, and you can get in contact with him at mylifechurch.org. You need to go see them if ever you're down visiting the Mouse. You've got to go to the church there on Sunday. Thank you for watching us on Daily Faith today. We love you. Pray for us in Moldova and Ukraine. We'll see you again. God bless. Bye-bye.
Resources: Book, Podcast, and Website
Over 25 years the Cameron family has been changing the lives of orphans in Romania and Moldova — from providing running water, flushing toilets, and clean wells, to coal for heat, new windows, as well as food and clothing. They championed the physical needs of the orphans in these broken and desolate countries. Many of Moldova's orphans are saved from the horrors of trafficking through homes founded by the Camerons, and in the process orphans become daughters and sons. They come to know their heavenly Father and are forever changed by the love of Jesus.
God helped the Camerons lift these amazing young men and women out of darkness. Now, no longer orphans, they want to return and invade that very same darkness with the light of Jesus Christ. The Orphan's Hands equips these daughters and sons to become missionaries. Your monthly gift of $31 will allow us to rescue and take in more girls and boys, saving them from the hell of human trafficking. Your monthly partnership will allow us to care for those in the Orphan's Hands homes in Moldova and Ukraine. If you want to join Philip and Chrissy in taking care of these precious young people, please contact us today by calling 833-Daily-Faith. You can also give by going online to www.dailyfaith.tv, or by writing to Post Office Box 25, Clinton, Tennessee 37716. So many lives depend on what we do. Thank you for loving the lost.
Common questions
Why did Ken Claytor say his church struggled to become multicultural even when they wanted to be?
Ken explained that for 10 years his church publicly declared it wanted to be a church for all people, but diverse attendees would come and not stay. It wasn't until about five years ago that he started learning specific principles for multicultural ministry, which helped the congregation shift from being 99% Black to roughly 50-50.
What does Ken Claytor mean when he says race is a 'man-made construct'?
Ken points out that the Bible never uses terms like Black, white, yellow, or brown, so the concept of race as we know it today has no scriptural basis. In God's eyes there is one race and different ethnicities to celebrate, and understanding that helps dismantle the core belief behind racism — that one race is superior to another.
How does Ken Claytor connect evolution to racist theory?
Ken argues that one of the foundational pillars of racist theory is evolution, which teaches that the lighter a person's skin, the higher they are on the evolutionary chain. He believes this is a racist idea being taught in public schools and that Christians should push back on it, because Scripture teaches that all people are made equally in the image and likeness of God.
What does Ken mean when he says 'being Black is not quite who I am, but it's what I look like'?
Ken says he loves his heritage and his people, but his ultimate identity is found in Christ — not in his skin color. He argues that when people identify themselves first as followers of Jesus rather than by ethnicity, they discover far more in common with one another than they might expect.
What practical steps does Ken Claytor suggest for individuals who want to help heal racial division?
Ken stresses that diversity doesn't happen by accident, so people need to be very intentional. He recommends going to dinner with people who don't look like you, inviting them into your home, buying from multi-ethnic businesses, and making sure your children build real relationships across ethnic lines — not just a surface-level diversity but genuine inclusion.
Topics
ken claytorracial reconciliationmulticultural churchchurch unityas it is in heavendiversityidentity in christ