By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
How to Combat the Spirit of Offense in the Church
About this episode
Pastor Mark Ivy of Christ Alive Church in Newton, North Carolina joins Philip Cameron for a penetrating conversation about one of the most underdiagnosed crises facing the American church — the spirit of offense. With church attendance in America now below 17% and the average churchgoer attending only 1.7 times per month, Ivy argues that the real problem isn't a lack of evangelism programs — it's that believers can't get along with one another. Drawing from John 13 and Matthew 24, Ivy traces Jesus' own evangelism strategy: "By this will all men know that you are my disciples if you have love one for another." He unpacks the Greek word "skandalon" — the bait placed in a trap — to show how unresolved offense leads progressively to betrayal, hatred, and a loss of spiritual discernment. "Offense blinds me," Ivy warns. "I won't be able to discern the spirit of the day." He also cites Hebrews 12, cautioning that a root of bitterness defiles many, and references John Bevere's landmark book The Bait of Satan. Ivy's call to action is clear: leaders must model compassionate confrontation, root out personal offense, and demonstrate to a watching world that believers can genuinely love one another — because until they do, every evangelism effort risks pulling new converts into a toxic environment rather than a transforming one.
Part of our Offence collection of conversations.
Quotes worth sharing
“He said, by this will all men know that you're my disciples if you have love one for another. The evangelism strategy of Jesus was not good preaching. It was not a great worship team. It was not a great facility. It was not building programs and large budgets. The evangelism strategy of Jesus wasn't a program where we trained people to do evangelism. The evangelism strategy of Jesus was believers that could actually get along with one another.”
“If I don't deal with my personal offenses with other individuals, I will lose my ability to discern truth from error, right from wrong, black from white. Offense blinds me. I won't be able to discern the spirit of the day.”
“If you have offense with someone in the church, you're hurting the church and you're tearing the church down. The church is his body. Would you put Christ back on the cross? Of course you wouldn't. But by having offense with each other, that's exactly what you're doing.”
What's Discussed
Pastor Mark Ivy of Christ Alive Church in Newton, North Carolina makes the case that the American church's decline — attendance now below 17%, average attendance 1.7 times per month — is rooted not in poor programming but in unresolved interpersonal offense. Referencing John 13, Matthew 24, and Hebrews 12, Ivy traces a biblical progression: offense leads to betrayal, then hatred, then an inability to discern truth from error. He connects the Greek term 'skandalon' (bait in a trap) to John Bevere's The Bait of Satan and argues that Jesus' evangelism strategy was never a program — it was believers visibly loving one another. Ivy closes with a call for leaders to become compassionate confronters, warning that unaddressed bitterness defiles entire congregations and renders outreach efforts counterproductive.
- Church Attendance Crisis in America
- Jesus' True Evangelism Strategy
- Foot Washing and the Nature of Greatness
- Skandalon: The Greek Root of Offense
- Offense Leading to Betrayal and Hatred
- How Offense Destroys Spiritual Discernment
- Bitterness Defiling the Congregation
- Compassionate Confrontation and Restoring Unity
Scripture in this episode
Episode Transcript
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Intro
Philip:Hello, my friend. My name is Philip Cameron. I'm so glad you're joining us today in Daily Faith. This program is on every time, every day, this time to bring a measure of faith and agreement of faith into your spirit. Because faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. And as you are listening to what our guests say and what God uses me to speak into your life, we want to affirm your faith.
Philip:I believe that God is gonna send a revival to this world the likes of which has never been seen before. And I've lived twice — I have two experiences in my own life of a supernatural move of God. I mean a real — the first one in the sixties, when I was a young boy, I lived in the most amazing time. Our family were all alcoholics, got saved, got baptized in the Holy Ghost when no one — we didn't — we thought we were the only people in the world that were baptized in the Holy Ghost. We thought there was a Pentecost that happened just for us in our little town in Scotland. And out of that came praise music.
Philip:And we came to America in the mid sixties, and I came in 1969. That's when I first came to America. And we sang and praised and brought a whole new wave of worship into the church. And in our church in Scotland, I've witnessed with my own eyes the sovereign divine moves of God.
Philip:Incredible stuff that — when you've experienced something like that, when the storms come and when everything is against you, it's those anchor points of your life that you can hold onto as the tidal wave rushes over you. You can hold onto the moments that you knew God was real and you knew he was moving by his spirit. And you know that the storm that you're in is gonna pass because you are anchored in what you know, because of what you've witnessed.
Philip:And I just really sense today that God wants to speak to you through our friend today. Mark Ivey is a great man of God. He's gonna be with us in a few minutes. And I just want you to — if you love your pastor, contact him right now and say, watch the program today. Because some stuff that is relevant, that is appropriate for your church will be discussed here today on the program.
Philip:As you know — and if you don't know — we have a mission work for 34 years now in Eastern Europe, in Moldova, Romania, Ukraine. Most recently, we've been going to Turkey to help the earthquake victims. You don't know — it hasn't been reported much anymore in America. But the greatest tragedy, the greatest natural disaster ever, took place in Turkey a couple of months ago. And Erdogan, who just won the election in Turkey, was so afraid that the people would find out how bad things were down in the southeast of Turkey that they would throw him out of power.
Philip:They almost did. But what happened was he closed down the media reporting on the earthquake. My son took a team from Moldova down there. In one city, 1.6 million people, 90% of the buildings were destroyed with the earthquake. They uncovered — they dug out 20% of the buildings when they were there, and it found 50,000 bodies. And it's not being reported.
Philip:And so our team is getting ready now to go back. We've bought many, many family tents that a family of, you know, eight, ten people can stay in. And we put 50 of them up right there on that piece of land that they gave to us to do. And we're going back to do the same thing again.
Philip:And we also found care packages. And one of our vans drove all the way from Moldova, through Romania, through Bulgaria, down to Eastern — picked Andrew up — and then drove 12 hours down to the earthquake right on the border of Syria. And we bought hundreds and hundreds of those boxes. And we got news the other day that the tents are full and the boxes are gone. So we're going back to see what we can do again to help. In fact, next week that's gonna happen.
Philip:But one of the things that we do — we do all of these things — but our core, the core point of our ministry in Eastern Europe is we rescue kids from orphanages and from dire poverty. And those kids are at the risk of being trafficked. 400,000 women have been trafficked out of Moldova. And Ukraine is another center point for trafficking.
Philip:And so a lot of that — we've been talking recently about what's happened in Ukraine, what's happened in Turkey. But this last few weeks has been very bittersweet for us because we've lost some of our girls — not in a negative way, but they've graduated from university and have now got themselves jobs, and they're moving on and they're all getting together and renting little apartments together. And it's a wonderful thing. It's the success of our ministry, but we still miss them like a mom and dad would.
Philip:And here's one of our girls. I want you to meet today and see the miracle of what God has done in her life. And this is what you do when you support our ministry. Watch this.
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Philippians 4, verse 13. If I had given up, I might not have made it this far. Maybe I wouldn't even exist anymore.
My name is Veronica and I come from a family of three children. At the age of six, my mother chose to abandon me. I don't know the exact reason why she left, but she took my older brother with her. And I stayed with my younger brother and father. After she left, my dad turned to alcohol. He spent every penny, leaving us with nothing.
It was very difficult for me because all the household responsibilities fell on my shoulders. I had to take care of him, do the cleaning and cook. At eight years old, I didn't go to school much. And if I went out and played with other children, my father would beat me because I wasn't at home doing the cleaning or cooking for him.
Also, he would wake up at night and demand food from me. Because of this, sometimes I wouldn't eat so that he could eat, because if I didn't give him food, he would beat me until I would bleed. My younger brother would always pull him from behind, begging and crying, "Don't beat her, daddy, don't beat her." But he would still continue to beat me.
For a long time it was very painful for me to watch other children playing in the park with their families. And I would often start crying in the streets while watching them hug or hold hands, because I wanted to feel what it's like to have someone who loves you, who takes care of you, or what it feels like when a mother buys you a dress.
Those feelings overwhelmed me. And I even tried to end my own life many times. But I'm thankful that I am here now and I have another day.
When I finished high school, I dreamed of continuing my studies, but there was no way. I desperately searched for help and God answered my prayers through the Orphan's Hands. Now I want to say a heartfelt thank you for everything you do to give us a second chance at life.
My encouragement to all of you is to never give up no matter what life throws at you. Keep trying because you'll make it in the end. And don't forget to trust in God because he blesses us abundantly.
Philip:Absolutely marvelous. That's grace. From a situation that you and I couldn't even imagine — brokenness, heartache, abuse, physical abuse, mental abuse — that young girl is now standing on her own feet, saved. You can know that by how she talks, how she knows the scripture.
Philip:In fact, one of our workers just came back from Vatra Village last week. And they have — I don't know what it is — but they've got a computer and each of their phones are connected to the computer and they have quizzes. And she says for hours they'll play this Bible quiz, learning the word of God. And her name is Mara. She's been with our ministry 40-odd years. And she says, I've never seen anything like it. Never seen a hunger for the word of God. And frankly, our kids in America don't have that hunger for the word of God.
Philip:Starting next month, our kids are gonna have a whole summer of camps. They go to villages that have no gospel outreach, no place to hear the gospel. And in fact, they called me — they missed our — we just sent the container last week and it missed. I tried to get a tent. We are looking for a tent that will house 200 people. If you know of one, let me know, please. They want to get a tent to put up. At the moment they've just got those little canopy things that they use, with a bunch of those there. But we are looking for a bigger tent to take to a village.
Philip:And in a week, they feed all the kids in the village, they play games with the kids in the village, and share the gospel with them and will change our village in a week with the gospel. And so that's what we do, apart from the humanitarian aspect of feeding refugees, which we are still doing. We still go to Ukraine. We still go to Odessa. We're still feeding there. We still have a home there that houses 24 girls. All of that still functions.
Philip:But the core ministry of who we are — what we were doing before the war and before the earthquake — was we were taking young men and young women whose lives have been destroyed by circumstance and putting them back together. Branches, little trees that have been stepped on by brutality, unbearable brutality, and wrapping and binding them.
Philip:In fact, we just had five of our girls leave last week. And what they did was they asked if they could plant trees. And each one of the girls planted a tree at Vatra Village to remember the days where they were put and rooted and grew in the word.
Philip:You can help us. You can be a part of a miracle by giving today. A monthly or one-time gift — whatever you feel led to do — changes people's lives, really changes people's lives. PO Box 25, make a check out to the Orphan's Hands, PO Box 25, Clinton, Tennessee 37716. Or you can go to dailyfaith.tv. There's a giving page there. You click a button and you can tell me where you want the money spent. If you want it to go to Ukraine, we'll send it to feed refugees.
Philip:If you wanna help a team that's going to Turkey, just write Turkey and we'll send it in that direction. If you wanna help Vatra Village — Vatra, V-A-T-R-A, is the village that we have all these kids in — it's an amazing place, an amazing place of grace and mercy where these kids come to be healed. And we are just astonished by it.
Philip:And you can also call right now, 833-Daily-Faith, and a real life person will pick up the phone. Thank you for your giving. Make a difference today if you can.
Philip:I have a dear friend with me. In fact, every time I get the run sheets of our programs, there are several names that click in my spirit that I know something good is going to happen. Mark Ivey is one of those. Darren, Zach, Drew, Buddy Lord — these great men of God that have become pillars in my life, pillars of this ministry. And Mark Ivey, he is a pastor of a church in Newton, North Carolina called Christ Alive Church. A great Holy Ghost church. My Lord, every time I go there I get more from them than they get from me, because you sense the presence of God on the place. Mark, I am delighted to have you with me. God bless you, my friend. How are you doing?
Mark Ivey:I'm great, Philip. It's awesome to see you again and talk to you.
Philip:Great to have you. Well, we are doing the kingdom of God business as you are. And let's get right to this thing. God's been challenging you — every time you come on and you share what the Lord's been talking to you about, I think, oh my goodness, boy, that's needed in the church. And God's been showing you something about what's taking place in the body that we need to address. So here's what we know: church attendance in America now is beneath 17%. Unbelievable. We know that the average church attender in America is going to go to church approximately 1.7 times a month.
Church Attendance Crisis in America
Mark Ivey:So there's a number of reasons for that. And the first response that church leaders are going to have is, well, we just need to do evangelism. And I'm all for evangelism, obviously — reaching people for Christ and of course helping people share their faith, et cetera. But there's a piece that's being missed. Because when you go to John 13, let me just kind of break John 13 down for a minute. It's the evening of the Passover. Jesus is sharing the final Passover meal, and he does something that only the loyalest of servants would do. He washes the disciples' feet. And of course we know the story.
Jesus' True Evangelism Strategy
Mark Ivey:And Peter — when Jesus gets to Peter — he says, no, Jesus, you're not gonna do that to me. And Jesus says, if I don't do this to you, you can't have any part of me. And of course Peter says, wash all of me then. And what we're missing in the context of John 13 is — when you read the other gospels — when they went into the room, they were arguing about which one of them was going to be the greatest.
Philip:Wow.
Mark Ivey:And so Jesus then washes the feet of the disciples to show them what greatness really looks like.
Foot Washing and the Nature of Greatness
Philip:Wow.
Mark Ivey:And then Jesus will make a statement in John 13:35. He said, by this will all men know that you are my disciples. And what's the qualification there? It's not because you have a great church. It's not because you have great worship. It's not because you have great preaching, because you have a great budget, et cetera, et cetera — all that goes along with church. He said, by this will all men know that you're my disciples. How's the world gonna know — the world that's not in church, the world that's not paying attention to the church, the world to whom much of the church has become irrelevant? He said, by this will all men know that you're my disciples if you have love one for another.
Philip:That's the qualifier. Absolutely.
Mark Ivey:And so the evangelism strategy of Jesus was not good preaching. It was not a great worship team. It was not a great facility. It was not building programs and large budgets. The evangelism strategy of Jesus wasn't a program where we trained people to do evangelism. And again, I'm for that. But the evangelism strategy of Jesus was believers that could actually get along with one another.
Skandalon: The Greek Root of Offense
Philip:Yes.
Mark Ivey:And this is where I believe the church has become challenged in America. Because having done ministry — you've been in ministry longer than I have — we've been doing ministry for 35 years, 22 years at this church that we planted. It has become obvious, and if anybody's willing just to acknowledge it, that the real issue is not that we don't have good programs.
Philip:Mm-hmm.
Mark Ivey:The real issue is that we can't get along with one another.
Philip:Boy, that is a truth. What do you mean?
Mark Ivey:Okay. So Jesus in Matthew 24 will talk to us about the end-time atmosphere. And he says this in stages. He says, many will be offended. This is in Matthew 24. Of course we know what that word means. It's from the Greek word "scandalon," which was bait that was put in a trap for animals. They couldn't see the trap. They could only smell the bait. They take the bait and the trap gets them.
Philip:Oh my goodness.
Mark Ivey:And of course John Bevere — your friend — wrote a great book, "The Bait of Satan." I believe many believers have taken the bait. Here's what I've watched. I've watched believers walk into church and they won't speak with somebody on the other side of the building. They'll walk out different doors so that they don't have to encounter someone.
Philip:Yeah.
Mark Ivey:And Jesus would make a statement and say, if you are worshiping and you have offense with someone, he said, stop your worshiping, stop your preaching, stop what you're doing, stop your giving.
Philip:Stop your giving. That's right.
Mark Ivey:He said that the issue of offense within the body of Christ would be all throughout the body of Christ right before his return.
Philip:Yeah.
Mark Ivey:And of course a lot of words find their way into English. "Scandalon" — the Greek term — if you are walking in offense with somebody, you are in a personal scandal that has to be dealt with. Now watch this — watch what happens if the offense isn't dealt with. Jesus said, the next thing that happens: many of you will be offended, then they will betray one another.
Offense Leading to Betrayal and Hatred
Mark Ivey:The outcome of undealt-with offense — among a husband, a wife, a family member, a church member, a person you work with — the next step is betrayal. It's my belief that moral failure in a marriage is not about lust. It is about offense, because when the offense is not dealt with, it leads to betrayal. Then Jesus said, if that's not dealt with, the next step is hatred.
Mark Ivey:I don't wanna see their face. I can't stand them. I can't be around them. And then Jesus will say — and it seems like it's not connected, but it is — then many false prophets will arise and deceive many. What does that have to do with offense? Here's the issue with undealt-with offense. If I don't deal with my personal offenses with other individuals, I will lose my ability to discern truth from error, right from wrong, black from white.
How Offense Destroys Spiritual Discernment
Philip:It blinds you.
Mark Ivey:Offense blinds me. I won't be able to discern the spirit of the day.
Philip:Such powerful. And we can talk all about evangelism, but until we deal with the offense piece and understand that the evangelism strategy of Jesus is loving one another — because that's what the world will grab onto — until we deal with the offense piece, we're gonna continue to decline within our churches and within our relationships and our ability to be able to reach people for Christ.
Mark Ivey:And the thing is, offense has become an industry.
Philip:Oh yes.
Mark Ivey:Offense in America today — in the natural world, in the kingdom of darkness — offense is the spirit that they use to attack you with, and the sword they use to attack you with. So what we've done is we've taken that offense that's in the world and we've taken it into the church. Because we watch all the different movements — whatever you wanna call them — the gay agenda or whatever else is going on today, all this transgender stuff that's going on today. And we think, boy, look, they can do what they want and they get mad enough and they can rob our stores and walk in and walk out and no one can say anything because everyone's offended. We're getting reparations. This is why we're doing this. And we've taken that and we've brought that into the church.
Mark Ivey:But people don't understand what they're doing is they are tearing apart the body of Christ. You are not just having a fight in a store. If you have offense with someone in the church, you're hurting the church and you're tearing the church down. The church is his body. Would you put Christ back on the cross? Of course you wouldn't. But by having offense with each other, that's exactly what you're doing.
Mark Ivey:Philip, national statistics tell us that over 30% of people leave churches because they're offended with someone or something. And the problem with that is that we carry that back into the next place that we go to. If I don't deal with something over here, I just carry it to the next place that I walk into, whether it's a family, a business, a church, or whatever it is.
Mark Ivey:And we forget the words of the writer to the Hebrews that says, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you. And we say, oh, I know what I think doesn't affect anybody else. No — trouble you, and thereby many are defiled.
Bitterness Defiling the Congregation
Philip:Unbelievable.
Mark Ivey:And my plea for the body of Christ, number one, is for leaders to remove anything of offense that might be in their life. Look, we've been in ministry long and have often had plenty of opportunities to be offended by the acts of people and the things that they do, the lies that they say, the stuff that they repeat that isn't true. We've all had the opportunity for that to happen.
Philip:Worse than the National Enquirer.
Mark Ivey:Yes. We have to deal with that on our own. But beyond that, if we are going to reach a demonized culture with the gospel of Jesus Christ, then we are going to have to show the world the love of Jesus. And the love of Jesus is not just sappy. It's direct. It deals with things.
Philip:Yes.
Mark Ivey:We're gonna have to show the world system that we're living in that believer to believer, family to family, husband to wife, children to parents, parents to kids — we're actually gonna have to show them that we can actually love one another. Otherwise our evangelism attempts are going to fall on deaf ears.
Philip:Wasted. Wasted, yes.
Mark Ivey:Wasted. And actually, if we're successful in evangelism, we take people into this environment — we're pulling them into a cesspool and they'll end up being worse. They'll end up backsliding and being bitter at the same time. And they'll be doubly cursed by the fact that our bitterness is a poison.
Philip:Bitterness. My dad used to say this to me and I've learned this through bitter experience: you cannot be bitter and be blessed. And you've got to put stuff to the side and say, God, I gotta put that in your hands. I'm gonna keep on going. I'm going to take the bitterness out of myself because I can't live with that kind of pain inside me, because the only person that bitterness affects is you.
Philip:If you are watching just now and you are in a situation where you're at odds with the church and the pastor — there's a million reasons — the only person that's being affected immediately is you. But that disease spreads through your family, spreads through the church. And that is something that we cannot have. We've got 45 seconds left. Mark, give us one thought to send us away blessed, because this is something every pastor needs.
Compassionate Confrontation and Restoring Unity
Mark Ivey:Warn a divisive person once, warn them again a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. We have to be compassionate confronters in the body of Christ. If we're going to deal with the spirit of offense, and if we'll do it, God will help us to create the spirit of unity. And that's when the Holy Spirit is outpoured. Acts 2 was unity. It was the outpouring of God's spirit because of the unified body of Christ.
Philip:I love it. Thank you so much. Our time has gone. Wonderful. See you again in Daily Faith.
For over 25 years, the Cameron family has been changing the lives of orphans in Romania and Moldova — from providing running water, flushing toilets, and clean wells, to coal for heat, new windows, as well as food and clothing. They champion the physical needs of the orphans in these broken and desolate countries. Many of Moldova's orphans are saved from the horrors of trafficking through homes founded by the Camerons. And in the process, orphans become daughters and sons. They come to know their heavenly Father and are forever changed by the love of Jesus.
God helped the Camerons lift these amazing young men and women out of darkness, now no longer orphans. They wanna return and invade that very same darkness with the light of Jesus Christ. The Orphan's Hands equips these daughters and sons to become missionaries. Your monthly gift of $31 will allow us to rescue and take in more girls and boys, saving them from the hell of human trafficking. Your monthly partnership will allow us to care for those in the Orphan's Hands homes in Moldova and Ukraine.
If you want to join Philip and Chrissy in taking care of these precious young people, please contact us today by calling 833-Daily-Faith. You can also give by going online to www.dailyfaith.tv, or by writing to Post Office Box 25, Clinton, Tennessee 37716. So many lives depend on what we do. Thank you for loving the lost.
Common questions
What does Mark Ivey say is the real reason church attendance in America is declining?
Mark says the real issue isn't a lack of good programs, great preaching, or evangelism training — it's that believers can't get along with one another. He argues that Jesus' own evangelism strategy was a unified, loving church, pointing to John 13:35: 'By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.'
What does the word 'offense' actually mean in the Bible, according to Mark Ivey?
Mark traces it to the Greek word 'scandalon,' which referred to bait placed inside an animal trap. The animal could smell the bait but couldn't see the trap. He says many believers have similarly 'taken the bait' of offense without realizing they've walked into a spiritual trap.
What happens if offense in the church goes unaddressed — what's the progression?
Mark walks through the stages Jesus lays out in Matthew 24: undealt-with offense leads first to betrayal, then to hatred, and finally to an inability to discern truth from error — making people vulnerable to false prophets. He also connects moral failure in marriages not to lust but to unresolved offense that escalates into betrayal.
Why does Mark Ivey say offense is so dangerous to evangelism efforts?
Mark argues that if the church is full of offense and bitterness, successful evangelism actually makes things worse — new believers get pulled into a toxic environment, end up backsliding, and leave doubly bitter. He says bitterness is a poison, and that evangelism attempts will 'fall on deaf ears' until the church can visibly demonstrate love for one another.
What practical advice does Mark Ivey give church leaders for dealing with divisive people?
Drawing on the book of Hebrews and his closing exhortation, Mark urges leaders to be 'compassionate confronters' — warn a divisive person once, warn them a second time, and after that have nothing to do with them. He believes that when the church deals with the spirit of offense and pursues unity, the Holy Spirit is outpoured, just as in Acts 2.
Topics
mark ivyspirit of offensechurch unitybitternessevangelism strategychurch declinecompassionate confrontation