I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
Daily Faith with Philip Cameron: Special Guest Pastor Thomas McDaniels
About this episode
Pastor Thomas McDaniels joins Philip Cameron for a candid, Spirit-filled conversation about what happens when the Church stops making room for the Holy Spirit — and what it looks like when she starts again. McDaniels, who pastored for 40 years before transitioning his Longview, Texas ministry into a movement that equips and gathers pastors, describes the citywide meetings he now hosts where spiritual gifts are identified before the service even begins: "Who in here has tongue and interpretation as a gift?" That simple question, he explains, restores the order Paul describes in Scripture while unleashing the supernatural. The two leaders diagnose a quiet crisis in modern Christianity: that evangelical and charismatic churches alike have become so professionalized that the Holy Spirit has effectively been planned out of the service. "We've learned to factor him out," McDaniels says plainly. Drawing on 1 John 5 — "the anointing teaches us all things" — he challenges pastors to trust the anointing over the order of service, to stop mentally skipping ahead to the next agenda item, and to give God the center. McDaniels also shares a remarkable story of a bishop who left his bed at 10 p.m., walked into one of these gatherings, and was publicly touched and transformed by the Holy Spirit. If you are a pastor or church leader hungry to see genuine spiritual power restored, connect with Thomas McDaniels at thomasmcdaniels.com or find him on Facebook.
Part of our Holy Spirit collection of conversations.
Quotes worth sharing
“That girl in the hand of a trafficker will generate $300,000 a year in income being trafficked. All that we do in our ministry in Moldova and Ukraine — all the houses, all the vans, all the outreaches, all the feeding programs, all the stuff that we do — it comes down to someone just like you giving a dollar a day. If I were to take you to where a wee girl was going into the back of a trafficker's car, and I were to say to you, we could save her for a dollar a day, would you do it? Would you save her? For goodness sake, Philip, yes, I'll give a dollar a day. That's all I need.”
“We've taken on the structure. You can no longer tell if you're in a Baptist church or a Pentecostal church. We all sing the same songs. We all have the same style of worship. The platforms look the same. The thing that makes Pentecostal churches different is that we always allow and give space to the moving of the Holy Ghost. And that has gone.”
“This was before church became professional. This is before we learned how to do it all ourselves. And that's why we don't need the Holy Spirit anymore. Because we've learned to factor him out. Because we've planned the most — how to do it now. And the truth is, that's why there's no power. That's why there's a lack of power — because we don't give the Holy Spirit room to move.”
What's Discussed
Pastor Thomas McDaniels, based in Longview, Texas, spent 40 years leading a church of 1,000 members before executing a succession plan and pivoting to a ministry that equips pastors to host Holy Spirit-led gatherings. He now convenes citywide meetings — recently drawing 25 pastors into one room — where spiritual gifts are identified at the outset and the first 30 minutes are devoted entirely to worship with no human interruption. McDaniels argues that modern churches, whether evangelical or charismatic, have professionalized worship to the point of excluding the Holy Spirit, citing 1 John 5 on the anointing as teacher. He illustrates the fruit of this model with a story of a local bishop who left his bed at 10 p.m., walked into a meeting, and was publicly transformed. Contact: thomasmcdaniels.com.
- McDaniels' 40-Year Pastoral Journey and Succession
- Launching Citywide Pastor Gatherings
- Identifying Spiritual Gifts Before the Service
- Bishop Humbles Himself at 10 PM Meeting
- How Professionalism Replaced the Holy Spirit
- Body Ministry and Every-Member Participation
- Trusting the Anointing Over the Agenda
- Staying Present Instead of Planning Ahead
Scripture in this episode
Episode Transcript
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Intro
Philip:Hey, my friend. Welcome to Daily Faith. My name is Philip Cameron, and I am delighted to have you with us. We got a good show today. A dear friend of mine is on — Thomas McDaniels. Tom McDaniels is an innovator, and God's given him a unique ministry in encouraging pastors.
Philip:One of my great callings in my life over the years has been to be a friend of pastors. I have no calling on my life to be a pastor. I'm a missionary, I'm an evangelist. And yet, as I've traveled over 55 years — I've been traveling, speaking in churches — sometimes these great men and women of God struggle in their ministry because they don't have a friend. They don't have someone they can confide in. They don't have resources in their hands. And Tom McDaniels has started an amazing ministry, and he's gonna tell us about it today.
Philip:If you could help us share this program, that would be a great help to us. Just hit the Daily Faith button on Facebook and share it to your friends. And also, there's a way that can give you a reminder when we come on the air. If you go to DailyFaith.tv, there is a catalog of all the programs we've done in the last few days. We've had some great guests, great ministry, great thoughts, and we just want to be a part of your daily faith walk.
Philip:You need something in your life that affirms where you are — someone that comes along and says, you're gonna be okay, you're gonna make it through the storm. We are living in unprecedented days. I've been in America for 55 years now, believe it or not, and I have never, ever in my life experienced and seen what is happening in this country. Up is down, in is out, right is wrong, wrong is right. They have turned this whole country upside down.
Philip:And unless God intervenes in our affairs, we are — do you know something I just saw the other day that was interesting? Great Britain, the country I come from, which makes England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales — the four United Kingdoms of Great Britain. Do you know that Britain as it exists today — now listen to this — is 1% the size it used to be when the British Empire with Queen Victoria was at its zenith? It's the largest empire that has ever existed. Bigger than the Roman Empire, bigger than any other empire. The British Empire — the sun never, ever set on the British Empire. Today we are 1% of what we used to be.
Philip:So you're never too big to fail. I think America has got into a thought, a process — well, we are special, we're unique, we'll never fail. Unless we honor God and put him first as a nation, let me tell you something: we are not too big to fail. We need God in America. And these clowns — these absolute clowns that have somehow found their way to the rivers of power — are destroying this nation one increment at a time. They want to destroy it. They want America to become like Europe. And Europe is failing. Europe's coming back out of that desert, out of the nonsense that they've been in, having destroyed themselves. And America is doing exactly the same thing.
Philip:So I want you to listen today. And I mean especially if you're a pastor — if you love your pastor, contact him, because Thomas McDaniels has a ministry to help pastors, and there are resources available they can get in contact with him. Also, Daily Faith is on YouTube. Very simple — you go to youtube.com/dailyfaith. Really simple: youtube.com/dailyfaith. And we are there. You can go back. Our programs also — we are delighted to have you with us.
Philip:We've got a great testimony coming up from one of our girls in Moldova. For those that don't know, we've got the most amazing, unique ministry in Moldova and Ukraine. Long before the war started, we had a home in Odessa, and our kids lived under the threat of war. In fact, a few weeks ago they spent the night in the hallway of the house, which was the strongest part of the house, and away from the walls in case of missiles — because they heard the missiles landing from the Russian soldiers. So we've got some amazing stuff to share with you today, and we are delighted you're here. Listen, I'm glad you're with us. Welcome to Daily Faith.
Philip:Hey, my friend, welcome to Daily Faith. My name is Philip Cameron, and I am so glad to see you with us today. This program is here for your help. We want to encourage you as we see the day approaching. The Bible says that men's hearts are gonna fail them for fear. We need to be alert and aware as to what God is doing in the days we're living in, and to be sensitive to the voice of God. We've got a great friend with us today. Tom McDaniels has a unique ministry ministering to pastors, and I think you'll be blessed by what he's gonna say. If you love your pastor, contact him right now to take a real look at Daily Faith, and I think you'll be blessed by it.
Philip:One of the things that we do here at Daily Faith — one of the ministries that we have as a whole host of ministries — is we've been, for the last 35 years, conducting missions in Romania, Moldova, and Ukraine. 35 years ago, I adopted a wee boy from an orphanage in Romania, and that set us on an adventure and a road that is still unfolding before us. We've got some amazing stuff taking place, even as I speak right now, as far as growth and enlargement and further involvement in our mission work over there.
Philip:And the crazy thing — what happens is in that country, poverty — it's the poorest country in Europe. It has the highest percentage of alcoholics in the whole world. More alcoholics per population in Moldova than anywhere else on Earth. That has a tremendous tax on society, on the family. Alcoholic fathers abandon their kids, die young. Alcoholic mothers are in the same situation. So you have these kids that are left usually with grandparents who can't afford to feed them, and they end up in orphanages. And once they're in the orphanage system, they literally fall off the map in that place.
Philip:They are told constantly, you are garbage, you're nothing, you'll never be anything. And they are conditioned to fail. When they're 16, they're put on the street. They're given a bus ticket to whatever town they come from, and they stand in bus stations or train stations going nowhere. And someone will come up and offer them a job at a restaurant or a babysitting job, whatever, and they get in the car and they're gone. And they're part of the statistic of trafficking.
Philip:One of the biggest money-making things in the world today — and growing at an alarming rate — is human trafficking. Once they're caught by the traffickers, they're used 30 to 50 times a day until they're completely, utterly destroyed. They're kept drugged. And for a wee bit of drugs and a happy meal — a hamburger and a beating — they can make these girls do whatever they want. And God led us 25 years ago to begin a crazy thing.
Philip:And it's a ministry to take these kids from the orphanage, to cut off the trafficker, and put them back in school and tell them, if you're born, God has a plan — you're not a mistake. And the craziest things happened. These orphans that no one wanted are being transformed by the power of God to become missionaries. And these kids, all through this last summer, they're having kids camps all over different towns and villages. They adopt a village for a year, and they find out every orphan, every widow, every family that's in trouble, and they go there and they love them and care for them and feed them and bring clothes to them and preach the gospel to them.
Philip:And in fact, today I'm having a meeting about the possibility of starting our very first church in Moldova. So it's just one of those things that just keeps on going and growing, and it's kind of taken on a life of its own. We have a testimony today of one of the young girls that live in — we have a village of homes called Vatra Village. Vatra means hearth, like a fireplace. And we have a village of homes in Moldova called Vatra Village. And these kids come to us, we put them back in school, and the miracle of redemption takes place. It's just crazy.
Philip:And we have a testimony of one of our girls who lives in a home sponsored by Daystar ministry — you know, the television network with Marcus Lamb and Joni Lamb, who founded it. Marcus is now in heaven, and Joni and her husband Doug now run this great ministry. They sponsored one of the houses. And here is a testimony of one of our girls from Daystar house. Watch this.
Veronica:I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Philippians 4:13. If I had given up, I might not have made it this far. Maybe I wouldn't even exist anymore.
Veronica:My name is Veronica, and I come from a family of three children. At the age of six, my mother chose to abandon me. I don't know the exact reason why she left, but she took my older brother with her, and I stayed with my younger brother and father. After she left, my dad turned to alcohol. He spent every penny on it, leaving us with nothing. It was very difficult for me because all the household responsibilities fell on my shoulders. I had to take care of him, do the cleaning, and cook. At eight years old, I didn't go to school much. And if I went out and played with other children, my father would beat me because I wasn't at home doing the cleaning or cooking for him.
Veronica:Also, he would wake up at night and demand food from me. Because of this, sometimes I wouldn't eat so that he could eat, because if I didn't give him food, he would beat me until I would bleed. My younger brother would always pull him from behind, begging and crying, don't beat her, daddy, don't beat her. But he would still continue to beat me. For a long time, it was very painful for me to watch other children playing in the park with their families. And I would often start crying in the streets while watching them hug or hold hands, because I wanted to feel what it's like to have someone who loves you, who takes care of you, or what it feels like when a mother buys you a dress.
Veronica:Those feelings overwhelmed me, and I even tried to end my own life many times. But I'm thankful that I am here now and I have another day. When I finished high school, I dreamed of continuing my studies, but there was no way. I desperately searched for help, and God answered my prayers through the work of Philip's hands. Now I want to say a heartfelt thank you for everything you do to give us a second chance at life. My encouragement to all of you is to never give up, no matter what life throws at you. Keep trying, because you'll make it in the end. And don't forget to trust in God, because he blesses us abundantly.
Philip:You can't imagine the sorrow and the hurt that that girl has gone through — when your own family don't want you, when your mother abandons you, and your father beats you until you bleed. And every beating, every abuse takes hope away from you and strips you of hope. And that's the girls that are most vulnerable for the trafficker. They come up to her and say, listen, we can give you a job. We'll give you some money. We'll give you a place to stay. And anything is better than a beating. They don't know — when they get in that car, they think they're going — these aren't bad girls. These are innocent, naive girls that go into a car and are lost forever.
Philip:That girl in the hand of a trafficker will generate $300,000 a year in income being trafficked. All that we do in our ministry in Moldova and Ukraine — all the houses, all the vans, all the outreaches, all the feeding programs, all the stuff that we do — it comes down to someone just like you giving a dollar a day. If I were to take you to where a wee girl was going into the back of a trafficker's car, and I were to say to you, we could save her for a dollar a day, would you do it? Would you save her? For goodness sake, Philip, yes, I'll give a dollar a day. That's all I need.
Philip:When you're watching this right now, we have 25 new kids waiting to come into Vatra Village that are not supported. Many years ago when I first started, we put windows in the largest orphanage in Moldova — 391 windows in one orphanage. There were 700 kids. It was terrible. And the day we finished the last payment, and it was the last inspection of the work the workers had done, the director took me out and there's a bench and there's 18 girls on this park bench. And he said, they almost go. I said, where are they going? I had no idea. And he shrugged his shoulders.
Philip:And that day, my wife Chrissy and I had to make a horrendous decision. We had one house. And I said to her, how many of these kids can we take? Christine — her face turned white as I looked at her — and she says, if we don't use the room to make a computer room, one of the rooms will be a computer room. She says, we can take three of them. And I had to choose three girls out of 18 and let 15 go away. It was the worst moment of my life. One of the girls was taken to China, trafficked to China. We found her through Russian Facebook. And she told us that the worst thing that they'd done so far to her was on a Christmas day — they took her to a conference and she was used by 95 men in one day. The only reason Valentina ended up in China was because we didn't have a bed for her.
Philip:I'm asking you today to help us. A dollar a day won't change your world financially, but I promise you it'll change one of these 25 kids that are standing on the threshold of hope. And you and I are the only hope they have to get in. So please call us — just say, Philip, I'll help. I'll give a dollar a day. Really simple. Orphans Sans Frontières, P.O. Box 25, Clinton, Tennessee 37716. P.O. Box 25. If you go to DailyFaith.tv, there's a giving page there. And also 1-833-DAILY-FAITH — just type Daily Faith and so on. A real live person will pick up the phone and talk to you. Help me help these kids today. Do it right now. Make a difference right now. In Jesus' name.
Philip:I have a dear friend with me today. Tom McDaniels — he is a pastor, but he is also a pastor to pastors, and he heads Tom McDaniels Ministry in Longview, Texas, with his darling wife Charlotte. Tom, thank you for being with me today. God bless you.
Thomas McDaniels:Hello, sir. Listen, man, what a moment. What a video. I just can't tell you how much —
Philip:Amazing, isn't it?
Thomas McDaniels:You know, Philip, the thing that people — many of us don't realize is there's a video that shows a life change, but that doesn't show the daily demand of what you guys are doing.
Philip:That's true. True.
Thomas McDaniels:And you know, for 10 years I fed a thousand families — our ministry fed a thousand families a month in Longview, Texas, right here on the streets of Longview. We just stopped doing that many numbers recently. We revamped and downsized a little bit just due to funding. But no one, if you have an idea of what that costs day to day —
Philip:Yeah.
Thomas McDaniels:But it's a pleasure. At the same time, it's such a ministry. And you guys — I just wanna say to you, from the Lord's heart and my heart, you guys are changing so many lives and making such a difference. And the other thing I wanna say is I'm very pumped about you starting a church over there. I just feel the Lord's pleasure on that, and I want to come over there. If there's a church being planted, I'm there. I'm like a church planting guru. I love that.
Philip:Well, we — anyway, I just wanna say congratulations for that.
Thomas McDaniels:And you know, I'm a fairly regular partner with you, and I'm gonna do more. I always say that and I do. But I wanna say thank you, thank you for what you guys do. It's amazing.
Philip:Thank you for helping us. And you — you understand, being a pastor. And you have a unique ministry. I want you to explain to folks what you've done — you've passed a very successful church on, and you have taken a whole new dimension of ministry. Tell us what you do and what God's leading you into.
Thomas McDaniels:I pastored for 40 years, and my son — two years ago we did a succession plan. I wanted to get out of the pulpit before I was, you know, past my age of relevancy, because I watched so many guys do that. And I'm still very relevant, but at the same time I wanted to do it early, and I did, because I also wanted to move into showing pastors how to do church off of a plan. And so we started birthing and launching citywide meetings, inviting pastors. The last meeting we had, we had 25 pastors in the same room.
McDaniels' 40-Year Pastoral Journey and Succession
Philip:That's amazing.
Thomas McDaniels:And what we're doing in those is we're modeling the Holy Spirit. We're modeling what the Holy Spirit can do if you'll give him some space. There's plenty of order. It's not chaos at all. It's actually organized chaos that is better church than what we have been taught and trained to do.
Launching Citywide Pastor Gatherings
Philip:Yes. You know, as a pastor I did the same thing. We all did. I came in, we opened up, we did worship. Our church was a thousand members in a relatively small town. So we built a large church in a small town. And we did video — we had an online team and a video team and an audio team. And we had 12 full-time ministers, five full-time pastors. We did all that. And I did it for 40 years. And finally got to the point in the last five years of that — I'm like, you know what, I'm tired of this machine. I want the Holy Spirit to have his way.
Thomas McDaniels:Absolutely. So we revamped and we did it differently. We started out saying, we don't know what's gonna happen. We had an order of service that we were ready to go off of at any time the Holy Spirit was ready. And sometimes he did, and sometimes he didn't. And when he did, we enjoyed church a lot better — when people were being healed, and prophetic words were being released, and words of knowledge were happening. And yet it was in order, like Paul says in the scripture. So we're not crazy, we're just a little bit unpredictable. But there's a lot of predictability in it.
Identifying Spiritual Gifts Before the Service
Thomas McDaniels:And so we started hosting meetings. I brought worship teams together from the region. Most of the guys — the drummer was from a different church than the lead worshiper. We put teams together, and we just went in and said, we're gonna worship. And then I had a message planned, and if I got to preach, I got to preach. But we were modeling what the Holy Spirit can do, especially for some of these guys that have been in the evangelical church or the charismatic church that was like a Baptist church — similar to a Baptist fellowship. And there's a lot of those, by the way. Some of the Assemblies of God have died.
Bishop Humbles Himself at 10 PM Meeting
Philip:What's happened, Tom, as well — we've taken on the structure. You can no longer tell if you're in a Baptist church or a Pentecostal church. We all sing the same songs. We all have the same style of worship. The platforms look the same. The songs — instead of along came the Holy Ghost. The thing that makes Pentecostal churches different is that we always allow and give space to the moving of the Holy Ghost. And that has gone. And when was the last time you heard someone speaking in tongues and giving interpretation in church? It doesn't happen anymore.
Thomas McDaniels:You know what, Phil, just going off this chart this morning — but let me share what we do. When we first start these meetings, the first thing that I do is identify the gifts. So we have an opening prayer, and I say, okay, who in here has tongues and interpretation as a gift? And somebody will raise their hand. And I said, okay. So if we have a tongue, then we're gonna look to you. And if there's five of them, I'm gonna say, we're gonna look to you. Who has the gift of healing? Who has the gift of tongues? Who has the gift of faith? And so we identify those gifts. And then we go, okay, so now we know we have order.
Thomas McDaniels:And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna flow in the spirit. And what I do is I say, okay, the first thing we're gonna do — the only real plan we have is the first 30 minutes are dedicated to worshiping God. And the whole service is a worship service, but the worship team never comes off the platform. But the first 30 minutes, there's gonna be no interruptions. No man's gonna talk, and the Holy Spirit's gonna have his way. We're gonna get our hearts ready to minister. And so then we flow in words of knowledge. If there's a prophetic word, we judge that word, we test it right there. We write it down, we track it. I'm teaching them how to go off the scripture. Really, isn't it amazing that churches are gonna go off the scripture? So that's our real focus.
How Professionalism Replaced the Holy Spirit
Thomas McDaniels:It's been amazing. I'll tell you one story. I know we're not going into my notes and I don't care about that. So one night, 10 o'clock — what I did is we said, these are long meetings. So what we do, we do an hour and a half, we take a 10-minute break, we get a drink, a cup of coffee, go to the restroom, we come back and start a stretch service all over again. Whoever wants to leave can leave. The stayers can stay. We start all over. We start worship over. We do the same order, only it's always a wholly different service. And so it's just a phenomenal thing.
Thomas McDaniels:10 o'clock at night — this is one of my best stories. 10 o'clock at night, a pastor in my city was at home in bed. He opens his Facebook, he comes to my Facebook page, and we're in service. And the Holy Spirit says, get out of bed. Go — a Saturday night — get out of bed, go to that meeting right now. Humble yourself. This is a bishop in our city. I mean, everybody in our city knows this man. And the Lord says, humble yourself in front of these men. Have them lay hands on you, and you're gonna see a difference in your ministry from this day forward. He gets out of bed, gets dressed, walks into our service, walks to the front of our platform.
Thomas McDaniels:I mean, everybody knows this. If he walks up to the front of my church, I'm gonna say, here, hand him the mic. This is the guy. He's a black bishop in our city. I love him. I've been walking with him for years and years and years, and I've got great stories with him. But anyway, I saw him and I'm handing the microphone. He goes, no. And he tells the story to the church, to the audience. There's about 150 people in the room — there was 300, half of them left at the break. And it's 10:00 PM. So all the elders and pastors are coming up there. We're laying hands on this guy. He gets touched by the Holy Spirit. He talks to us afterwards. It's just — that's the greatest story.
Thomas McDaniels:If I have something to say, that's a victory for me. That's what it's all about in this transition. That's the victory for me. And this black bishop — he's a powerful man, but he does everything himself. You know those pastors? If there's a tongue, they interpret. They preach, they lead the worship, they lead another worship service, then they take the offering, then they preach, and they dismiss, and they lay hands on the sick, and everybody leaves. And there's one guy. So we're like, listen, we're gonna show you — there's somebody in here that has the word of knowledge, somebody in here that has —
Philip:I was raised in Scotland. I was raised in a church that we call body ministry. And from the time I was a young boy, I never, ever went to church without having something to talk about, in case my father called me to speak. And when you ended up being called, you better not have, I'm glad I'm saved, him by his grace — I mean, to go on. Because that wasn't enough. He said, come back here and talk something relevant. So what happened was, every time I went to church, I had to study and seek and search and yearn, because I knew that if my dad called me, I better — and I'm talking 12, 13 years of age. He chose everybody. But what it did was that all of us became aware and alert to the moving of the Spirit of God.
Philip:And it produced a disproportionate amount of ministers out of a tiny wee church that came to America and brought praise to Washington, to America. Because unless the body is in tune, unless everyone is prepared for something, then everyone expects nothing.
Thomas McDaniels:You know, Philip, that's beautiful and wonderful and I love it. But let's talk about it — we can talk about this. We're about the same age. This was before church became professional. This is before we learned how to do it all ourselves. And that's why we don't need the Holy Spirit anymore. Because we've learned to factor him out. Because we've planned the most — how to do it now. And the truth is, that's why there's no power. I'm not saying in every place, but that's why there's a lack of power — because we don't give the Holy Spirit room to move.
Thomas McDaniels:And you know, the other thing is with musicians — rather than being talented and powerful, now we just need talent. And I don't like poor singing and I don't like bad singing. I don't like bad music and I don't like bad musicians. But if they're talented only and don't know what to do in a moment when no one knows what to do and they're not hearing the Lord, that's the wrong musician. We need people that can sing what the Spirit's singing. If a person gives a word of knowledge on healing, then the next thing that can happen to take that deeper is our musicians can pick that up and say, I've got a healing song. This is what the Lord is saying.
Body Ministry and Every-Member Participation
Philip:I know churches that hire their band — hire them — and they play a set, and they were in the bar on Saturday night and they're in church on Sunday morning. The Holy Ghost will not show up. You can have great musicians, but unless the anointing of the Holy Ghost is there — the yoke is broken because of the anointing. And that is what we need in our churches.
Thomas McDaniels:Philip, just think about it. Listen, I could give you names of five musicians right now in town that are for hire, that are playing in the clubs on Saturday night. And I'm not judging them. I bless them and love them and they're good people. I can't say — that's all I'm gonna say. They're good people. I don't know about the rest of it.
Thomas McDaniels:But you know, I'm also being able to travel and share these thoughts. I was in a church recently. The Lord gave me a word about the Masons and the Masonic spirit. And I'm not super spiritual like that — when I say super spiritual, I don't normally get into those issues. I normally preach the gospel and teach the word. But the pastor called me a week later and said, listen, you created some stuff for me. But it was stuff I needed to address a long time ago and just didn't.
Philip:Well, I — when I travel in churches, I'll say stuff and the pastor will say to me afterwards, oh, thank God you said that. I've been desperate to say that, but if I said it, it'll blow the whole thing up.
Philip:We've taken the last bumper off the show, so we've gained another minute and a half here. Tell us what you're doing and how a pastor can get in contact with you and learn the importance of flowing in the Holy Ghost rather than producing a show. Because that's what the church has become.
Thomas McDaniels:Yeah. Let me — the contact, I'll give it to you at the end. But here's what I teach them. Ultimately, we teach them to trust in the anointing. And that's a terminology that — it's rare. Let me just say it that way. I don't wanna say in any way that we're the only ones, because we're not. But basically, rather than trusting in your plan — and there's been times in meetings where I'll just say, and Philip, you've been here, where you just say, I don't know what to do, guys. We're gonna sit down.
Trusting the Anointing Over the Agenda
Philip:That's the best ones.
Thomas McDaniels:Yeah. Like, guys, I've done this for 40 years. But my idea is not what we're looking for. We want to hear the Lord. But primarily I teach them to hear, to trust. In other words, when you don't know what to do, you trust that the anointing is gonna provide. The Bible says the anointing teaches us all things. It leads us into truth. The anointing will teach us. And the anointing — the Holy Spirit, who the anointing is — he's the teacher. And so at moments like that, we've just learned to say, quit going off your — here's the problem. This is the first thing the Lord taught me.
Thomas McDaniels:Philip, the Lord said, Tom, you're constantly looking at your list and doing the next thing. You're not in the moment. So I was like, okay, what's after worship? So I'm already skipping worship. But then what's after offering? Oh, there's a video. What's after the video? Oh, there's a testimony. What's after this? Another video. It's like, so you're just doing the next thing, rather than giving God — who is the centerpiece of all we are — the central thing. Giving him all the presence, all the glory, everything that we are, so that we can flow out of him and flow in him.
Staying Present Instead of Planning Ahead
Philip:That's what I want. I want you to get in contact with this man. If you are looking for God to take you to the next level, that's his information on the screen. ThomasMcDaniels.com. He's on Facebook. You need to get in contact with him, because I believe he can help you move to the next level. We love you. We'll talk to you again. Bye-bye.
For over 25 years, the Cameron family has been changing the lives of orphans in Romania and Moldova — from providing running water, flushing toilets, and clean wells, to coal for heat, new windows, as well as food and clothing. They champion the physical needs of the orphans in these broken and desperate lands.
Common questions
What exactly does Thomas McDaniels' ministry do for pastors?
McDaniels hosts citywide gatherings where he brings pastors together — sometimes 25 or more in the same room — to model what the Holy Spirit can do when given space in a service. He teaches pastors to trust the anointing rather than a rigid plan, identifying spiritual gifts in the room, flowing in words of knowledge and prophecy, and showing leaders how to lead a service that is ordered but Spirit-led rather than fully scripted.
Why did Thomas McDaniels step down from his church after 40 years?
McDaniels says he intentionally did a succession plan with his son two years ago because he wanted to leave the pulpit before he was 'past his age of relevancy' — he watched too many pastors stay too long. He also wanted to move into his new calling of teaching other pastors how to do church differently, led by the Holy Spirit rather than a program.
How does Thomas McDaniels structure his citywide pastor meetings?
He starts by identifying who in the room carries specific spiritual gifts — tongues and interpretation, healing, faith — so there is clear order before anything begins. The first 30 minutes are dedicated entirely to worship with no interruptions, and then the service flows from there with prophetic words, words of knowledge, and ministry — all judged and tracked in real time. Meetings run about an hour and a half, then there's a 10-minute break, and whoever wants to stay continues in a second stretch of the same format.
What does McDaniels say is the main reason churches lack spiritual power today?
McDaniels argues that churches have become so professionalized and pre-planned that they've effectively 'factored out' the Holy Spirit — they no longer need him because they've learned to run a polished service on their own. He also points to musicians who are hired for talent alone rather than anointing, saying the right musician needs to be able to follow what the Spirit is doing in a moment, not just execute a set list.
What's one specific story McDaniels shared about the impact of his pastor meetings?
At 10 PM during one of his meetings, a well-known bishop in his city felt the Holy Spirit prompt him to get out of bed, come to the service, and humble himself before the other pastors to receive prayer. The bishop walked in, told the room what God had said to him, and the pastors laid hands on him. McDaniels called it one of his greatest stories — a powerful, independent leader choosing to receive ministry from the body rather than always being the one giving it.
Topics
thomas mcdanielsholy spiritspiritual giftspastor ministrychurch leadershipanointingbody ministry