He who gathers in summer is a wise son, but he who sleeps during the harvest is a son who causes shame.
Lead with Faith: Courageous Christian Leadership Today
About this episode
Pastor Allen Jackson, senior pastor of World Outreach Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee — one of the largest congregations in America with more than 15,000 members — joins Philip Cameron to unpack the message of his book "Lead with Faith." Allen shares what compelled him to write it: watching gifted, accomplished people in his congregation shrink back from expressing their faith outside the church walls. "I don't believe we have legitimate Christianity if it only exists when we're together in the church building," he says plainly. Drawing on Proverbs 10:5 — "A son who sleeps during harvest is a disgrace" — Allen calls believers to stop waiting for the majority and start engaging culture boldly with a biblical worldview. He addresses the courage required to speak truth on marriage, gender, and the nature of Christ in a hostile climate, comparing courage to a muscle that only grows stronger through use. He also reflects on his own journey from a congregation of fewer than 30 people — where he mowed the lawn, painted the sanctuary, and cleaned the bathrooms — to the ministry he leads today, reminding listeners that faithfulness in small things is the foundation of every great work. The episode closes with a stirring vision of global revival, with Allen reporting moves of the Holy Spirit in Iran and China. Explore his full library of resources at AllenJackson.com, and find his book at AllenJackson.com/leadwithfaith.
Part of our Faith collection of conversations.
Quotes worth sharing
“I don't believe we have legitimate Christianity if it only exists when we're together in the church building.”
“In Proverbs 10, verse 5, it says, 'A son who sleeps during harvest is a disgrace.' So if you imagine yourself to be a child of God, and your excuse for being quiet or timid is because you've just been a part of the sleeping church, I don't want to be labeled disgraceful in the halls of heaven. I want to be a son that brings joy to the Father's heart.”
“We don't begin with all the courage we need to finish. We just begin with enough courage to take the next step. And if we will take that step, and then the next step, then God will bring the victory to our lives.”
What's Discussed
Pastor Allen Jackson of World Outreach Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee — a congregation that grew from fewer than 30 people to more than 15,000 — discusses his book 'Lead with Faith' and the urgent call for Christians to engage culture with a biblical worldview. Citing Proverbs 10:5, Allen warns that a church asleep during harvest is a disgrace, and challenges believers to speak truth on marriage, gender, and the lordship of Christ regardless of opposition. He compares courage to a muscle: it only grows when exercised to the point of fatigue. Allen also shares a vision of sweeping global revival, pointing to reported moves of the Holy Spirit in Iran and China as evidence that God is covering the earth with His glory.
- Why Allen Jackson Wrote Lead with Faith
- Faith That Lives Outside the Church Building
- Growing a Church from 30 to 15,000 Members
- Engaging Culture with a Biblical Worldview
- Proverbs 10:5 and the Sleeping Church
- Building Courage Like a Muscle
- Global Revival in Iran and China
- How to Access Allen Jackson's Resources
Scripture in this episode
Episode Transcript
Auto-generated · click any timestamp to jump the video
Intro
Why Allen Jackson Wrote Lead with Faith
Faith That Lives Outside the Church Building
Growing a Church from 30 to 15,000 Members
Engaging Culture with a Biblical Worldview
Proverbs 10:5 and the Sleeping Church
Building Courage Like a Muscle
Global Revival in Iran and China
How to Access Allen Jackson's Resources
Common questions
Why did Allen Jackson write 'Lead with Faith'?
Jackson wrote the book after noticing that many people in his congregation were strong leaders in business and academia but became reluctant or uncomfortable when it came to expressing their faith outside of church. He wanted to close that gap and encourage believers to bring their faith into the marketplace, schools, and everyday life — not just into the church building on weekends.
What does Allen Jackson say about Christians engaging culture instead of staying quiet?
Jackson believes the church has been too quiet — and at times too cowardly — about biblical truth. He argues that speaking up on issues like marriage and gender isn't being political; it's being biblical. He points to Proverbs 10:5, which calls a son who sleeps during harvest a disgrace, and says believers need to stop hiding from culture and start engaging it with the truth they know from Scripture.
How does Allen Jackson say Christians can build courage to lead with their faith?
Jackson compares courage to a muscle — if you don't use it, it atrophies. He says believers don't need all the courage required to finish; they just need enough to take the next step. Pushing through fatigue and adversity is exactly the point where God gives new strength, and each step of obedience builds more courage for the next.
Does Allen Jackson think faith gets easier as a church grows bigger?
No — Jackson is clear that the faith walk doesn't change with the size of a ministry. He pastored for over 10 years before his church could even afford carpet, and he says that the fear of failing and wondering whether you can keep things going is just as real at a large church as it is at a congregation of 30 struggling to pay the bills. He says the key is staying dependent on God at every stage.
What is Allen Jackson's take on the current spiritual moment in the world?
Despite real threats and global unrest, Jackson says the Spirit of God is moving in the earth in a way unlike anything he has seen in his lifetime. He points to this moment as a great harvest at the end of the age and urges believers to join what God is doing so they can take their place alongside the heroes of the Bible by being faithful in their own generation.