He who gathers in summer is a wise son, but he who sleeps during the harvest is a son who causes shame.
Leading with Faith in Culture: Pastor Allen Jackson on Courageous Christian Leadership
About this episode
Pastor Allen Jackson, senior pastor of World Outreach Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee — a congregation of more than 15,000 — joins Philip Cameron to discuss his book "Lead with Faith" and the urgent call for believers to stop hiding their faith and engage the culture boldly. Allen shares how the book grew out of a year of conversations with his own congregation, where he noticed gifted leaders in business and academia who were reluctant to pray or speak openly about their faith outside the church building. "I don't believe we have legitimate Christianity if it only exists when we're together in the church building," he says plainly. Drawing on Proverbs 10:5 — "A son who sleeps during harvest is a disgrace" — Allen makes the case that this is harvest time, and silence is not an option. He compares courage to a muscle: unused, it atrophies; exercised to the point of fatigue, it grows stronger. He also reflects on his own journey, serving a congregation of fewer than 30 people for more than a decade, cleaning bathrooms, mowing the lawn, and painting the sanctuary himself before World Outreach grew into what it is today. Whether you are a pastor, a marketplace leader, or a believer in a single workplace, Allen's message is the same: lead with faith where God has planted you. Find his book and full podcast library at AllenJackson.com.
Part of our Faith collection of conversations.
What's Discussed
Pastor Allen Jackson of World Outreach Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee — a congregation he grew from fewer than 30 people over more than a decade — unpacks the message of his book 'Lead with Faith.' He challenges believers to stop compartmentalizing their Christianity to Sunday services and instead engage the culture with a bold biblical worldview in workplaces, schools, neighborhoods, and families. Citing Proverbs 10:5, he warns that sleeping during the harvest is a disgrace. Allen describes courage as a muscle that grows only when exercised to the point of fatigue, and encourages those who feel weary that they are at the very threshold of new God-given strength. His full podcast and book are available at AllenJackson.com.
- Why Allen Wrote 'Lead with Faith'
- Faith Beyond the Church Building
- Growing World Outreach from 30 People
- Engaging Culture with Biblical Truth
- Proverbs 10:5 and the Harvest Urgency
- Courage as a Muscle: Fatigue Brings Growth
- The Four Men and the Paralyzed Man: Faith in Action
- Global Revival and the Spirit's Outpouring
Scripture in this episode
Episode Transcript
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Intro
Philip:Hey, welcome to Daily Faith today. My name is Philip Cameron, and I am so pleased you're with us. We have got a tremendous program today. I believe God is going to speak to you today through Daily Faith. Our program is here to stand with you and walk with you and affirm your faith every day. And we've got a great guest, Pastor Allen Jackson. He pastors World Outreach Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, and he's going to be speaking about his book, "Lead with Faith." And if ever a subject needs to be talked about today, it's to have you and I stand up.
Philip:God is looking for giants of faith to stand and say, "We will not bow. We will not bend because God is on our side." And we are just so excited to have him with us. As you know, we have a ministry in Moldova. Thirty-seven years ago, I adopted a wee boy called Andrew from an orphanage in Timișoara, Romania. I had no idea when I walked in there that day that God was using this little boy that I would adopt to transform my whole world, change my whole life into that of being a missionary to kids that have no hope. In Moldova, the new country, well, 25 years we've been working there, we have homes, a tremendous place called Vatra Village. It's a village of homes on the largest lake in the nation. It was built originally for rich people, and they poisoned the lake with chlorine to kill the algae, and this was never finished.
Philip:And we bought the place, finished the place, and now we have it full. Every house is full of young ladies, and one house is for young boys that otherwise are at grave risk of being trafficked. And they come to our homes in Vatra Village, and we share the gospel with them and let them know about Jesus. And the crazy thing is these orphans are turning into sons and daughters, and then from that, into missionaries. And our kids are out all through the summertime. They're having youth camps. At autumn, they change into caring for widows and broken families, bring them wood, and just change people's lives on a daily basis. And then these kids have become missionaries. Every one of the girls you're about to see are worth to the trafficker $300,000 a year. That's how much she can earn on behalf of the trafficker.
Philip:And every year in September, we have a new intake of kids. And they just sent me this video the other day, and it really blessed me, and I thought I would share it with you. Watch this.
Today, millions of people have walked through our doors, and it will change the course of their entire lives. They've come here to learn, to grow, to discover their gifts, and become the people they were created to be. And because of you, they now have that chance. Your support gives them more than education. It gives them hope and the future they once couldn't imagine. One day, they will look back and realize that their lives changed because someone chose to believe in them, and that someone is you.
Thank you for the opportunity to have a future. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Philip:Oh, my. All of those are brand-new kids to our homes in Vatra Village. And my wife, Chrissy, has just come back from there. They call me their dad and my wife, Chrissy, mom. And she just came back from there. And every one of those kids you're watching opening those big Rubbermaid tubs, that's like a whole future in a Rubbermaid tub. She produces them here in Tennessee for these kids personally. And when they come in, they have a welcome home party. And all the kids that are already in the home have a great celebration of these kids who have come in. Many just come in with a little bag or sometimes even nothing at all. And in those Rubbermaid tubs is hope and beautiful clothes and winter clothes, all kinds of stuff to let them know that they're cared for and they're wanted. Every one of these kids needs someone like you to stand behind them.
Philip:And if you could help us, we're looking for people. You can change a life for a dollar a day. Doesn't take much. A dollar a day can transform these young kids from orphans into sons and daughters and into missionaries. We put them back in school. And this is not feeding a bowl of food every day. This is a deep commitment to their lives, their education, their medical. They've never seen eye doctors or dentists, and we care for every part of their life and tell them, "You can stay with us until you can stand on your own feet." And we are watching miraculous things happen.
Philip:My son Andrew was over there a few months ago, and he was invited to one of our kids' weddings. And at the table he sat at, every one of the people at the table were kids that they rescued, now married with their own toddlers and their own kids running around. And so we're asking for you to pray about being part with us, to help us to support these kids as we bring them into Vatra Village. We have a tremendous challenge. My wife just came home, and while there, came across an unbelievable circumstance.
Philip:A few weeks previously, we had gone to this village and found a family of nine kids living in dire poverty. The husband was an alcoholic and beat his wife. And they brought them some bikes and a bassinet for the new babies. I mean, literally, they're all in stages age-wise and living in dire poverty. When my wife got there, they learned that the mother had discovered she was pregnant with her 10th child, and she couldn't take it anymore, and she committed suicide. And the kids are now staying with a grandmother who is sick herself, dying herself. And we are trying as fast as we can. We have two new homes that we're building right now, and one is almost finished, and we're going to take the next year to build the next one.
Philip:And because of this crisis, we are now trying to get the second home finished, and we're talking about taking all of these kids, and that will fill the second home just with this family. And we are believing God for people like you to stand with us to make this miracle take place. Can you imagine having 10 babies? The oldest is 14, all the way down to a little baby that's six months old, and she's pregnant again, beaten and abused. The husband has been put in prison because they're blaming him for this abuse. And the mother's gone, the grandmother's sick.
Philip:And these kids, we redid the house they're staying in, but it's absolutely tragic. So this second home will be about a $100,000 challenge, and we are praying that God will speak to you to be a part with us in that miracle. Let the Lord speak to you. You can contact us, Orphan's Hands, P.O. Box 25, Clinton, Tennessee 37716. Go to dailyfaith.tv. There's a giving page there. You can do that also. And if you dial 1-833-DAILY-FAITH, a real, live pastor will pick up the phone and take your call of support. Help us make a family situation for these 10 kids, or nine kids, that are in absolute devastation right now. If you do it, I promise God will bless you.
Philip:I'm so excited to have Pastor Allen Jackson with me today. He pastors a great church, World Outreach Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, and he's written a book. Among the many things he's got, I'll let him share with you. He's on TBN, he's got his own podcast, and he's taken the time to be with us on our little program today, and I really appreciate it. Pastor Allen, thank you so much for being with us today. God bless you.
Why Allen Wrote 'Lead with Faith'
Allen Jackson:Oh, it's good to see you again, Philip. Thank you for the work you're doing. I watched that bit about what you're doing with those young people, and you touched my heart, so thank you. It's amazing.
Philip:And as I'm saying, I adopted my son. You met Andrew in Washington, DC. That was the boy I adopted 37 years ago.
Allen Jackson:Wow.
Philip:And it's amazing when God leads you to do something, that you have no idea the rest of the story that's coming behind it. I thought I was adopting a boy. Instead of that, I got a whole new ministry, and God's been really faithful to us in our work there. You've written a book entitled "Lead With Faith," and if ever a book is necessary, it's this book at this time. You talk about a word, a timely word. We are living, and as you know this, Pastor, that we are living in dire days. When China is about to move on Taiwan, when Russia has already moved on Ukraine and Moldova, they want to take where our homes are. We have a home in Ukraine as well. Our kids in Ukraine live under constant bombarding from the Russians, and it is terrifying to see these things. And the church has very few faith-filled voices to speak the word of the Lord to what's going on. And tell us what led you to write this book and share with us your vision of what you see happening.
Allen Jackson:Well, thank you. I'm a pastor, and I see there are people in our congregation who have tremendous gifts and abilities. They're leaders in business. They are leaders in academia. They have all sorts of accomplishments and achievements. But I also recognize that in many cases, they were very reluctant to use their skills with regard to their faith. If you ask them to pray, they would go, "I'm not really comfortable doing that," or, "I don't want to lead a discussion."
Faith Beyond the Church Building
Philip:Yeah.
Allen Jackson:And I became very aware that we had to reconcile that gap in some way. And so I began to talk to the men of the congregation initially, and then the families and the people, and saying that we can't have faith that lives in a church building for a few minutes on a weekend when we gather for services, and then go into the marketplace where we spend the majority of our lives, or into the schools or classrooms or wherever it may be, and be quiet about our faith.
Allen Jackson:I don't believe we have legitimate Christianity if it only exists when we're together in the church building.
Philip:That is the truth.
Allen Jackson:And so we began to talk about how we could lead with our faith and use the influence that God has given us and be a bold, strong voice for Jesus of Nazareth as Lord, Christ, and King. And so the book really came out of a year's worth of work in the congregation.
Philip:As you're talking to me, I can see so many parallels as to what you're talking about and the need for it in the world we're living in. I mentioned, I referred to Winston Churchill. In our country, during the Second World War, my dad and my mom were teenagers during that time, and they lived under the threat of Adolf Hitler. And one man stood up and said, "We will never surrender." And he lifted a whole country up out of the doldrums and the fear of what was taking place. And if ever the day is needed for the Church to be that voice, today is the day.
Allen Jackson:Amen. And we don't have to be the majority.
Philip:No.
Allen Jackson:I think Christians need to be stirred in our hearts. We're waiting for somebody else to do this. If you're the only Christ follower in the school where you are or in the office where you work or the job site where you go or the neighborhood where you live or in your family, then let's be bold with the truth in whatever place God has planted us.
Philip:Yes.
Allen Jackson:We're not waiting for the majority to change. We're going to go be light in the darkness. And if we will do that, God will lead us in that.
Philip:Absolutely. I was noticing when you began your church, you now have a church of 15,000 people, and most pastors think, "Wow, if I could only have a 15,000-member congregation, I could do great things." But you started out in a whole different world than what you are in now. And it takes more faith to believe God when there's 30 people than it does when there's 15,000 because you've established yourself. And I know there are people watching just now who have challenges and things that they're facing, and the compromise is always there. Just give in, be unnoticed, just live in a small world.
Growing World Outreach from 30 People
Philip:But that's not where God lives. God lives in the guy that gets out of the boat and wants to walk on water. He's looking for that leadership faith that will transform the situation and circumstance that we're in.
Allen Jackson:Yeah. Our circumstances are not really what determines our future.
Philip:No.
Allen Jackson:It's our faith in God. When I began serving the congregation, there were fewer than 30 people. I served the church for more than 10 years, and we still couldn't afford carpet for the floor.
Philip:That's amazing.
Allen Jackson:So I haven't always had the privilege of serving a church that does the things we do today. But I had to learn and grow, and every day was a learning experience, and I refused to turn loose of the idea that God transforms lives. And if I would continue to encourage the people that God put in front of me to choose the Lord with their whole heart, that He would bring transformation.
Allen Jackson:And I'm still doing that today. I'm still learning. I'm still making changes. I still feel very inadequate for the tasks that are in front of me because if God doesn't help us, I will be a colossal failure. But the good news is He does help us. And the thing is this, a lot of folks, especially pastors, they don't understand that the bigger you get and the more responsibility you have, then the fear of failing and wondering if we can keep this thing going is as real as a church of 30 trying to pay the bills and buy carpet for the floor.
Philip:The faith walk doesn't change, in other words.
Allen Jackson:No, no. We're always dependent upon the Lord. "Give us today our daily bread." If we get away from that prayer, we have lost our bearing. And at this point in my life and this point in the ministry that God has asked me to serve, I'm as determined to live in that way. I don't want to move away from the edge of the branch. I want to live right there, where if God doesn't meet us, tomorrow doesn't look very bright to me. And I don't want to be reckless, and I don't want to be foolish, but I'm not looking for a comfortable place or a safe place or a non-challenging place.
Allen Jackson:We've got to move forward. It's harvest time.
Philip:That is the truth. And I'm aware that there are pastors watching. They may have tuned in because they know that you're on the program, and they're thinking, "If I can just get to a certain level, then I'm going to be safe. I'm going to be okay." But that is not how it works. Jentezen Franklin is a friend of mine, and it's the same thing. He'll say, "Philip, it's more terrifying where I am today than it was when we first went to the church at Free Chapel," because it is a process of development and faith, but you've got to keep yourself walking by faith and not depending on your own abilities or your own strength. It's the walk of faith that counts.
Allen Jackson:Yeah. I don't think it's the size of our ministry that determines whether faith is needed. But it does begin with a decision in our heart at every step along the way. We can choose a safe path, or we can choose a path that invites God to be God. And I think we do that all along the way.
Allen Jackson:And for full disclosure, the blessings of God bring opportunities that I didn't have when we had 30 people. When we had 30 people, I was cleaning the bathrooms and mowing the lawn and taking care of the church, and I painted the sanctuary the first three times it got painted over a number of years. I mean, I did whatever job needed to be done because I was the only person to do the jobs. And I don't have the privilege of doing that any longer, but I'm still very much engaged in the labor of the church and serving the people. And wherever God has put you, it's a temporary stage. The devil will tell you that you're trapped in that place forever.
Allen Jackson:I remember the battle in my head. I thought I'd be mowing the grass at the church for the rest of my life. And so I made the decision, "God, if that's what you want me to do, I'm going to mow grass unto the Lord."
Philip:Absolutely.
Allen Jackson:Or if I'm going to paint the walls of the sanctuary, I'm going to paint the walls as if the angels are in attendance while I do it. And whatever you put in front of me, and I'm still doing that. I'm still in places where I'm very aware that I don't have the answers that I need, and I'm trying to learn, but I want to serve the Lord with enthusiasm. So whoever may be listening, wherever you are, don't get a destination in mind that will make your life better. You serve the Lord with joy in the place where you are, and God will bring a future to you that will bring a sense of joy to your life.
Philip:I had a guest the other day that said something that stuck in my mind ever since. He says the Lord is changing us from glory to glory. And a lot of times, we are in a mess where we are, and we only think, "If I can get to the glory stage, then I'll be good." But you've got to work on it. It's from glory to glory, and you've got to work on the glory part where you are right now. And even though it's hard going through things, He's in a process of growing us from one stage and one level to the next level. And that's what you're saying. When you were painting the church by yourself, you didn't realize that you were literally making where you were at glory to go to the next level, and then you were blooming where you were planted.
Engaging Culture with Biblical Truth
Philip:What are some practical and spiritual tools that you'll help to lead folk with faith in their everyday lives?
Allen Jackson:Well, I think the simplest thing I would say to pastors or whoever's leading, if you're leading with your faith right now, is we have to be willing to engage our culture with the truth we know from the word of God. We can't huddle in our church buildings and do polite Bible studies about what culture was like in the first century. We have to take the truth of the word of God, that biblical worldview, and engage the realities of the 21st century.
Allen Jackson:And we're going to do that. There will be antagonism. Not everybody will cheer. They didn't cheer when Jesus did that. They didn't cheer when Peter did that. They didn't cheer when the Apostle Paul did that, and everyone won't cheer for you. Your critics will say you're being political. I don't believe saying marriage is between a man and a woman is political. I don't believe when we say that God created us male and female, that we're being political. I think we're being biblical. And the church has been too quiet, perhaps too cowardly.
Allen Jackson:When I say church, I'm not talking about pastors and denominations. I'm talking about those of us who are believers in Jesus. It is harvest time. I believe that. I believe it's the great harvest at the end of the age. And when I hear people say the church is asleep, that is very troubling to me.
Proverbs 10:5 and the Harvest Urgency
Allen Jackson:In Proverbs 10, verse 5, it says, "A son who sleeps during harvest is a disgrace." So if you imagine yourself to be a child of God, and your excuse for being quiet or timid is because you've just been a part of the sleeping church, I don't want to be labeled disgraceful in the halls of heaven. I want to be a son that brings joy to the Father's heart. There's been a tremendous sacrifice made for you and I to be included in the kingdom of God, and we need to use whatever influence God has given us.
Allen Jackson:If there's just one person that cares about your opinion, then with that one person, you share the goodness of Jesus Christ and how He's changed your life. If there's 100 people, then you have the courage to talk about a biblical worldview with that 100 people. Let's stop hiding from the culture, and let's engage the culture and just watch what God will do.
Philip:It is so critical, and I know you are aware as I am, that we're living in the most cataclysmic days. There's so many things moving all at one time that they could spill over into each other's arena, that we could be living in a nuclear day, never mind anything else, and yet the church needs to have a clear voice. You and I were sitting in that room in Washington, DC, and the attempt that we're making to be heard and be relevant in the world we're living in. And it needs courage, and how can a believer cultivate the courage needed to be a leader with their faith?
Allen Jackson:Well, I think of courage like a muscle. And if you have a muscle and you don't use it, it atrophies. It grows weak. Maybe if you break an arm and they put a cast on your arm and you wear a cast for six weeks, when they take the cast off, you have one arm smaller than the other arm. And the way that you regain the muscle is you have to exercise it, and you have to exercise, in order to gain strength, to the point of fatigue. If you don't work until the muscle is tired, you won't gain any new strength.
Courage as a Muscle: Fatigue Brings Growth
Allen Jackson:So to all of my brothers and sisters who would say they're tired, I would say to you, you are at the very point where God is going to give you new strength. I don't want you to grow weary in doing good. Don't listen to your adversaries. Don't give into the temptation to stop. If we will continue to persevere, to push through, to overcome in the face of the adversity, God will give us new strength, and we will gain new courage. We don't begin with all the courage we need to finish. We just begin with enough courage to take the next step. And if we will take that step, and then the next step, then God will bring the victory to our lives.
Allen Jackson:I think of the four men who took the man who's paralyzed, where Jesus was speaking. They lifted the roof off. It's easy to, once you're going out the door with a miracle and the guy's walking home, that's the other side of the miracle. But it's climbing up on the roof and tearing the tiles off the roof where the faith comes. And when you're going to believe God in spite of the circumstance and the criticism of all the people in the house, as the plaster's falling down on their head and they're saying, "What? Who are you? Who's this man that he can forgive sins?" And that's where the faith walk comes from, and that's where the miracles start developing in our lives.
The Four Men and the Paralyzed Man: Faith in Action
Philip:And I just, I'm so grateful. How do people get in contact with your podcast? Tell us how we can watch you there.
Allen Jackson:Probably the simplest way is go to AllenJackson.com, and it's got the full review of the podcast and the various things we do and the programming we do. It's Allen, A-L-L-E-N, Jackson.com, and all the stuff is there. God's moving in the earth, folks. He's doing remarkable things. And I don't want to focus on the darkness. There are real threats and real challenges and real disruptions and wars and rumors of wars, but the Spirit of God is moving in the earth in a way unlike anything I've seen in my lifetime.
Allen Jackson:And if we will join Him in that, we can take our place with our heroes in the Bible and be faithful in our generation.
Philip:Chrissie, my wife and I are painting our house right now, and we went to Sherwin-Williams. And outside of the Sherwin-Williams store, there was a pot of paint being poured as a sign, and it's a pot of paint being poured over the earth, and it says, "Cover the earth." And I said, "Chrissie, see that right there? That's a copy from the scripture. The Bible says that He's going to cover the earth with His glory." And we are witnessing, I believe, that God is going to send a mighty outpouring of the Holy Spirit around the world that will sweep in nations. They're telling me in Iran there's a mighty revival taking place. In China, there's a mighty revival taking place. And you're right, it takes people to see through the immediacy of the gloom to believe God for a mighty outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
Global Revival and the Spirit's Outpouring
Philip:And I am so grateful to you for writing this book. If you can pick this book up, "Lead With Faith," you need to get it, and you can get it on the website, wherever books are sold. AllenJackson.com/leadwithfaith is where you can get this book. Get this today. Give it to your pastor as a gift. I think he'll be blessed and enriched by it. And anyone, you can watch WorldOutreachChurch.org is the address. Pastor, thank you so much for being with me today. I hope you understood my accent all right. This is as good as it's going to get.
Allen Jackson:It was a delight to be with you today, Philip, and I appreciate your whole Daily Faith theme. You're making a difference. Don't grow weary.
Philip:Thank you, my friend. I hope you can come back and see us again in the future.
Allen Jackson:I look forward to it. God bless you.
Philip:Thank you, Pastor. Bye-bye. Thank you for watching Daily Faith today. We are so pleased that you joined with us, and I hope that something you heard today will inspire you to believe God and to lead by faith, lead with faith in the name of Jesus. Thank you for watching Daily Faith. We'll see you again. Bye-bye.
For over 25 years, the Cameron family has been changing the lives of orphans in Romania and Moldova. From providing running water, flushing toilets, and clean wells, to coal for heat, new windows, as well as food and clothing. They champion the physical needs of the orphans in these broken and desolate countries. Many of Moldova's orphans are saved from the horrors of trafficking through homes founded by the Camerons, and in the process, orphans become daughters and sons. They come to know their Heavenly Father and are forever changed by the love of Jesus.
God helped the Camerons lift these amazing young men and women out of darkness. Now, no longer orphans, they want to return and invade that very same darkness with the light of Jesus Christ. The Orphan's Hands equips these daughters and sons to become missionaries. Your monthly gift of $31 will allow us to rescue and take in more girls and boys, saving them from the hell of human trafficking. Your monthly partnership will allow us to care for those in The Orphan's Hands homes in Moldova and the Ukraine. If you want to join Philip and Chrissie in taking care of these precious young people, please contact us today by calling 833-DAILYFAITH. You can also give by going online to www.dailyfaith.tv or by writing to Post Office Box 25, Clinton, Tennessee 37716. So many lives depend on what we do. Thank you for loving the lost.
Topics
allen jacksonlead with faithcourageous leadershipbiblical worldviewharvest timefaith in the workplaceworld outreach church